Mistweaver Healing Compendium - Page 8

Daellia · 10/10/12, 1:18 PM

I was under the impression that WotM only applies to auto-attack DPS, not the damage done by jab, TP, and BoK. So you get slightly higher AA DPS but inferior jab/TP/BoK DPS from a 1H/OH combo.

Yup, my mistake, I spaced that restriction when typing that. That means that on average the 2-hander will deal between 37.5% and 85.3% additional damage on Jab, BK, and TP, depending on quantity of SP compared to quality of weapon. 185.3% is the ratio of DPS between a 2h and a 1h weapon of the same itemlevel, while 137.5% is the ratio of the normalization constants of the two weapon types. At 20k AP with the above 472 weapons, it's a ratio of roughly 55%.

Sorry, about going OT on this but in what situations would fistweaving be viable? Should I be able to keep a normal dungeion group up or is it just for raid healing?

Fistweaving is particularly viable while leveling. At max level, the issue becomes the mana cost on Jab (3% mana). While this is marginally more efficient at generating Chi than Soothing Mist (Jab is 1 Chi for 3% mana, Soothing is 1 Chi per 4% mana, on average), it is rather less efficient for HPM. Fistweaving also has the advantage of allowing instant free Surging Mists to be cast, as Tiger's Palm stacks a 30 second buff called Vital Mists that reduces the cast time and mana cost by 20% per stack up to 5 stacks.

However, note that while this may make Surging "free", it requires the use of 5 Chi, which translates into 5 Jabs, at 3% mana apiece. Surging is only 8% mana to start with, and only has a GCD-length cast time anyway (also is also instant by default if cast during Soothing), so the benefit isn't as strong as it may appear.

Ultimately, Fistweaving tends to be similar to Atonement healing: it's a good way to continue healing relatively light damage while also contributing DPS to the group during those lulls between heavy healing phases.

Atisha · 10/10/12, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by Spleener

May as well cross-post a couple of things I put on the beta forums over here:

So I coded back in proper scaling support in the calculator (I haven't even pushed the code to github yet, so don't bother checking the site,) and I don't think I'm doing anything horribly wrong in my calculations so I can give some conclusions regarding stat priorities now.

TL;DR-
Tank healing- haste >= crit > mastery
Fistweaving- crit > mastery > haste
AE healing - crit > haste > mastery*

This ignores breakpoints, of course- the above essentially only apply once you've hit the 1345 haste breakpoint to get an extra tick for ReM when raid buffed.

Some details-

Mastery's fundamental problem is that the proc rates are designed around (hits per second * spell proc rate multiplier) coming out to around 1 before haste is factored in, which is to say that it's designed around 1% mastery giving you roughly an additional .01 balls per second. This means that 1% mastery increases your hps by roughly 1% of the average healing done by a GotS sphere (this will be in the 25-30k range when your ilvl is in the mid 400s.) Meanwhile, an equivalent amount of haste rating increases the hps of all spells that scale with haste by 1.13% and an equivalent amount of crit rating increases the hps of all spells (including mastery balls) by .8%.

*Of course, the rates for infinite-target heals (ie CB, SCK, Chi torpedo, and ZS

) are balanced around 6 targets, which means that (assuming that the proc rate doesn't "cap" at six targets like the healing does, which I have not confirmed) mastery will contribute significantly more healing in a 25-man when the raid is stacked up and being facefucked in glorious unison than in a 10, to the point where on paper it moves from worst to best. In practice, though, I probably wouldn't go and reforge/regem to max mastery for any T14 fight. Meanwhile, for fistweaving mastery only beats out haste because haste is even more terrible for fist.

Moving on to haste- while only one of our chi spenders directly scales with it at all (enveloping,) they do indirectly scale with haste if you're generating chi with SCK or soothing, since more haste means you get the chi to spend faster. So basically haste is pretty good for tank healing because 2/3 of the spells you use (soothing/enveloping, which are ideally a large chunk of your healing vs. surging) scale with it, decent for SCK->CB/Uplift because SCK (which is roughly 2/3 of the healing done in that rotation) scales with it, and awful for fistweaving because only your white swings (which are admittedly ~40% of your damage) scale with it.

Mastery being so bad on paper is honestly a bit troubling to me, though- if anything I feel like they should "over-budget" it a bit so it looks better than the other stats on paper to deal with the fact that in the average case a fair amount of balls are going to be wasted.

Thinking on it, the best way to fix mastery would be to have the balls heal for x% of the triggering heal, rather than a semi-constant amount. This would also fix the issue of it scaling weirdly with SCK/CB past the target cap, since while going from 10 to 25 people will still give you 2.5x as many balls the balls will heal for 40% as much.

As far as weapons go, for fistweaving you want a staff. Way of the Monk normalizes the auto-attack damage of 1h and 2h (to the point where 1h actually comes out slightly ahead there) but Jab/TP/BoK damage still heavily favors 2H. If there's a significant (ie >20) difference in ilvl a higher mace/oh will still probably come out ahead by virtue of doing more auto attack and non-eminence healing, I'd imagine (though I haven't thrown too many numbers at this.)

Can anyone else confirm this? Specifically for tank healing and AOE healing. I am reading that past the 1345 haste point that crit and haste should basically be our stats. It's a pretty big difference from before; I have reforged out of haste and purchased pvp gear with mastery/crit instead of spirit/haste just to avoid haste.

The basis of this is that soothing mists, enveloping mists, and renewing mists tick faster? And that mastery does not really create additional healing spheres? Thanks.

zeraveth · 10/10/12, 4:49 PM

I've done some research on the world logs, and it seems our strongest raidheal in 25m is without a doubt Zen sphere, and not uplift. I've done some testing myself, and I'm quite amazed with the difference. My only problem is figuring out the most efficient way of building chi. For someone pushing 60% of healing with zen sphere on raid encounters, I'm quite curious how they build the chi.

Astrylian · 10/10/12, 5:35 PM

Originally Posted by zeraveth

I've done some research on the world logs, and it seems our strongest raidheal in 25m is without a doubt Zen sphere, and not uplift. I've done some testing myself, and I'm quite amazed with the difference. My only problem is figuring out the most efficient way of building chi. For someone pushing 60% of healing with zen sphere on raid encounters, I'm quite curious how they build the chi.

You're looking at logs from when Zen Sphere was bugged to ignore the AoE cap, which has since been fixed.

Vespasian · 10/10/12, 6:54 PM

Originally Posted by Daellia

Ultimately, Fistweaving tends to be similar to Atonement healing: it's a good way to continue healing relatively light damage while also contributing DPS to the group during those lulls between heavy healing phases.

I wouldnt quite agree with this. I'm finding that Jab plays an important part in maintaining optimal Uplift HPS. Renewing Mists + Expel harm will give you the two Chi needed for an Uplift, but while they are on cooldown you're going to want to Jab to gain Chi when you need to be pumping out constant (or even periodic) Uplifts. I generally do:

Renewing Mist + Expel
Uplift
Jab, Jab
Uplift
Small wait
Renewing Mist + Jab
Uplift
Expel + Jab
Uplift
etc

In this way, the Power Strikes talent is very attractive as it can proc additional Chi, thereby making this rotation even more efficient.

I think a lot of discussion regarding Monk healing has focused on a binary choice between Fistweaving or just healing- I think the reality is that your focus is on maintaining a healing rotation (as opposed to a DPS rotation) byt Jab is a critical part of any high-HPS rotation since it's an on-demand means of aquiring Chi, and since you're jabbing you may as well keep Serpent's Zeal up.

zeraveth · 10/11/12, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by Astrylian

You're looking at logs from when Zen Sphere was bugged to ignore the AoE cap, which has since been fixed.

I came to realize this, yes. But I have done some testing on Zen sphere in 25m, and it seem highly competitive with uplift. although it get useless on certain encounters.

audeamus · 10/11/12, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by zeraveth

I've done some research on the world logs, and it seems our strongest raidheal in 25m is without a doubt Zen sphere, and not uplift. I've done some testing myself, and I'm quite amazed with the difference. My only problem is figuring out the most efficient way of building chi. For someone pushing 60% of healing with zen sphere on raid encounters, I'm quite curious how they build the chi.

This is no longer the case. Look at any log since 10/5 and you will see that zen sphere detonation no longer appears. This is because they "hotfixed" (nerfed) the spell to only heal six people rather than as many as are within a certain range. Zen Sphere Hotfix - Analysis & Suggestion - Forums - World of Warcraft

audeamus · 10/11/12, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Atisha

Can anyone else confirm this? Specifically for tank healing and AOE healing. I am reading that past the 1345 haste point that crit and haste should basically be our stats. It's a pretty big difference from before; I have reforged out of haste and purchased pvp gear with mastery/crit instead of spirit/haste just to avoid haste.

The basis of this is that soothing mists, enveloping mists, and renewing mists tick faster? And that mastery does not really create additional healing spheres? Thanks.

Still interested in an answer on this! Every other sim says to go with Mastery- I am open to the idea that crit is better bc thus far in logs, our mastery has seemed lackluster, but I would like to see numbers.

Kawa · 10/11/12, 1:10 PM

Windsong is now proccing correctly off of our non-melee healing. 17 procs in a 4:50 wipe of pure ranged/SCK healing.

♦ arison · 10/11/12, 2:43 PM

Using Jab to build Chi seems to be the way to go; at least my own testing shows it to be very sustainable as a method of fueling Uplift. Basically the rotation Vespasian describes, though I'd hold Expel Harm for times when you have something to heal rather than using it rotationally.

I'm undecided on Chi Brew vs Power Strikes. Having an emergency supply of four Chi is pretty nice for sudden Uplift spam, but more difficult to time properly. I still think it's ideal but Power Strikes is probably a decent choice.

As for damage from staves vs one handers; you can't trust tooltips (at least you never could during beta). I'll see if I can update the calculator to make sure the 2h numbers it has are still correct (and other hotfixes since I last updated it) but I think Fistweaving (pure dps, not much else for healing) isn't a particularly useful way to heal outside of five mans, and even then only when damage is light. The throughput is modest at best and simply can't compete with Uplift spam or our other abilities. Jabbing for Chi is great, and possibly maintaining Serpent's Zeal, and *maybe* Tiger Power, but not a full "use all Chi for damage abilities" rotation. Once the calculator is updated (probably the next few days) we can get better numbers here and model different gearing levels to see how it changes.

Astrylian · 10/11/12, 4:56 PM

Originally Posted by audeamus

This is no longer the case. Look at any log since 10/5 and you will see that zen sphere detonation no longer appears. This is because they "hotfixed" (nerfed) the spell to only heal six people rather than as many as are within a certain range. Zen Sphere Hotfix - Analysis & Suggestion - Forums - World of Warcraft

False. There was no nerf here, it still heals everyone, and this was a simple bugfix. The AoE capping broke briefly, and they re-fixed it.

Atisha · 10/11/12, 4:57 PM

Fistweaving... I can't believe how much discussion is centered around this. Not even remotely applicable to any situation. We want a main hand and offhand for two enchants. Until someone has successfully even used jab as part of a rotation in heroics, never mind full fistweaving, I don't see the point. Why spend time even positioning and engaging yourself in full melee dps mechanics, avoiding front cones and damage around the boss, potentially getting out of range of other raid members or LOSing, when there's already enough to worry about? All this to spend mana and a GCD jabbing?

♦ arison · 10/11/12, 5:19 PM

Originally Posted by Atisha

Fistweaving... I can't believe how much discussion is centered around this. Not even remotely applicable to any situation. We want a main hand and offhand for two enchants. Until someone has successfully even used jab as part of a rotation in heroics, never mind full fistweaving, I don't see the point. Why spend time even positioning and engaging yourself in full melee dps mechanics, avoiding front cones and damage around the boss, potentially getting out of range of other raid members or LOSing, when there's already enough to worry about? All this to spend mana and a GCD jabbing?

Our logs aren't public but Jab is exactly what I used in our Heroic 25 progression. It works great. In a 6:29 Stone Guard kill, I gained 118 Chi from Jab (compared to 33 from RM, 19 from SM). Basically this averages to a jab every 3s. This doesn't include overflow, I think (I prioritize casting RM over Jab, though I missed/delayed a few RMs unfortunately). Hardly perfect play, but it was pretty effective.

Eminence was around 13% of my healing (using Xuen, which was about half of my damage). I didn't use BoK or TP, just Jab and Xuen. Clearly not Fistweaving, but effective nonetheless. Basically the alternative is Soothing Mists, which will generate Chi more slowly. I'm not saying this is the optimal approach, but it clearly is viable and deserves further study.

Portrero · 10/11/12, 9:43 PM

A couple things:

Regarding the Cranedancer's Staff, while it's not competitive with a 509 with a legendary gem in it for eminence healing, it definitely is competitive with 463s & 476s, which many of us are still using a couple weeks in since there's only 1 mainhander in the first raid and healers are often last priority for loot. It boosts eminence healing significantly and it's great for added damage in challenge modes which cap out at ilvl 463 in any case. I swap it out frequently during challenge runs.

Also, although a full eminence melee rotation isn't ideal for most fights, Jab is a GREAT way to build chi for low mana if renewing mist or expel harm aren't available. It only costs 1 GCD and 9k mana and a jab-jab-uplift-jab-jab-uplift (with EH + RM on cd of course) rotation is very very effective at raid healing, particularly on fights like Elegon, Spirit Kings, or some phases of Feng. It also isn't a waste of time to spend 4 chi every 30s to maintain the BoK buff if you have a statue up and if you'll be able to have high autoattack uptime on the boss. 10k+ DPS from autoattacks = 10k+ HPS from eminence.

Personally, I prefer Chi Brew over Power Strikes for the Uplift burst but I think it wouldn't be a mistake to use PS, esp with the upcoming changes in the PTR patch notes that will make it easy to watch its ICD to ensure full use of the talent.

Does anyone else use CJL fairly frequently as a filler spell if there's not any major healing going on? With a statue out, it's about 75% as effective as soothing mist on a heals per mana basis (it heals for more, faster and generates chi slightly faster but for 150% as much mana) with the advantage that its heals are split among multiple people. It becomes more effective than Soothing on bosses with a +damage buff. I guess this mostly applies to 10m raiders since 25m probably spend very little time casting soothing in the first place.

Spleener · 10/13/12, 12:52 AM

In practice, raid fistweaving involves ReM on cooldown, jabbing for chi, BoKing just enough to keep SZ up, and otherwise spending your chi on uplift when it will do ~70-100k+ effective healing and TP when it won't. Chi wave on cooldown when uplift won't heal for more should also be thrown in if you're not on a fight where CB is good.

Something to keep in mind is that BoK's effective healing includes the amount of time you're adding to your SZ buff times your auto-attack DPS- if you're perfect and do every BoK refresh with <1s left on your buff BoK's healing per mana/chi/execution time is higher than any other button you have save Uplift with a very high number of ReMs in play. And this isn't even considering the many fights in play this tier that have mechanics that increase damage but not healing (or double dip on a damage and healing increase.)

Essentially, while Eminence will rarely wind up being your biggest source of healing in serious content, fisting is an efficient way to heal in low-damage situations and a solid supplement to your hps when doing ReM/Uplift-based healing.