Like Water - The Brewmaster's Resource [5/17/13] - Page 6

Kozaky · 01/21/13, 4:38 PM

First off, let me say how happy I am someone made an updated thread.
Seriously, thank you. A lot.
Next: I already am a LW/Inscriptionist on my Brewmaster. It's mentioned that it's suboptimal to use Leatherworking, so I MAY switch that soon.
I'm gemming for expertise and stam/haste, is there a reason I shouldn't do this? Generally my gemming is:
Agile Meta
Expertise+Stam in Blue
Expertise+Haste in Yellow/red
I'm not too sure what to do on enchants, my guild gets confused when I don't have over 600k health buffed, so I've been enchanting for stam, as well as using stam food and flask.
What do I tell them to get them off my back and switch back to agi enchants/food/flask?
Is there a specific health pool I should shoot for for Heroics?
Sorry if these questions are a bit mind numbing, I haven't actually gotten a chance to talk to other brewmasters.
Moophisto @ Emerald Dream - Community - World of Warcraft is my armory for reference.

Bemxuu · 01/22/13, 2:59 AM

It is mentioned on each page of each discussion topic. Why not try to figure out one universal answer?

There is no "golden rule" on how to distribute available stats. One has to make his own choice on each of this steps.
Step 1. Stack Effective Health through stacking stamina then mastery until you stop getting bursted down.
Step 2. Stack haste then hit/exp to a point where you have sufficient Chi to maintain Shuffle, use Guard on cooldown and use PB on demand.
Step 3. Start stacking other stats:
Mastery: boosts EH and contributes to damage reduction. Replace stamina with it, if you choose to go this way.
Haste: more damage, more PBs, more GotOx spheres. Until 5.2 hits live, it's also more T30.
Crit: more damage, more EB stacks.
Hit/exp: stat contributing the most towards damage, also contributes to Chi generation. You can start replacing haste with those as soon as you've stacked sufficient haste and EH.
Dodge/parry: improves your avoidance passively, also makes your trinket+EB combo more powerful. Least popular stats though.

Seriously, everything that works for you is fine here, it's a playstyle thing. If you have been tanking H Mel'jarak in your current gear and had no problems with it, you've got sufficient EH. Haste-wise, you have the same rating as I do, but you also have hit/exp caps, which increase you Chi generation. What do you spend your Chi on? What does your Shuffle timer show by the end of a fight? *let's say it's H Ta'yak*

Kozaky · 01/22/13, 10:29 AM

Thanks for the info, I tend to PB more often than I should, usually as soon as I see my stagger at yellow. On H Ta'yak my shuffle uptime has been pitiful recently, mainly because when I'm not tanking Tayak I'm spending my chi almost completely on chi wave while I still have vengance to help heal what I can. Would it be better to just stack shuffle during this time? I find myself doing this on almost all fights, except for H Wind Lord/Garalon.

Pisshands · 01/22/13, 6:58 PM

Make sure you are Keg Smashing on cooldown. Keg Smash use is a primary factor in Chi generation. 100% Shuffle uptime should be the goal on every fight other than Lei Shi. Allowing Shuffle to drop in order to Purify is a common mistake, and a significant one. The value of Stagger at which that tradeoff is worthwhile is dependent upon the target's damage per hit and amount of time spent without Shuffle, but suffice it to say that the value of Stagger needed would be significant (at least a Heavy Stagger in most scenarios). This problem is circular. By using Purifying Brew too often and losing uptime on Shuffle, a Monk loses substantial avoidance and takes more hits, sending Stagger upward and perpetuating the need to Purify too often.

Doing damage as a tank is important, and stacking up Shuffle is the best method of dealing damage we possess. Thanks to Black Ox Statue, simply doing damage as a Brewmaster translates into absorption shields on the raid, and their scaling is pretty tremendous. The problem with stacking Stamina is that while it provides safe space for burst damage, it affords absolutely no damage reduction whatsoever. It is pure cushion, and we are a class that already possesses a built-in cushion of 20% (base) + 20% (Shuffle) + ~9% (Mastery) effective health in the form of Stagger.

Compared to our counterparts, the Monk kit is built to more easily absorb large physical bursts of damage while taking more damage over the course of a fight. As such, the ideal method for gearing a Brewmaster is to shore up the weakness of total damage taken by gearing for maximum damage reduction, and then to use cooldowns to cover burst damage and emergency scenarios. Self-triage is the name of the Monk game.

Edit: I cannot recommend Engineering highly enough to Monks. The value of combining Tiger's Lust with Rocket Boosts (when they don't backfire) cannot be captured on paper, but it is tremendous in long mobility settings. For example: in doing Blade Lord Ta'yak, we set a Warlock's Demonic Portal from roughly mid-room to his phase 2 pedestal. I used Tiger's Lust and Rocket Boosts and arrived on his pedestal at the same time as the first person to reach the portal. Essentially, I ran from wall to wall in the same time that the second fastest player in the raid ran about 50-60% of the way across the room, because I spent six seconds of the phase moving about as quickly as a 310% flying mount.

drtyprior · 01/23/13, 3:18 AM

I appreciate the clarification about having enough stamina to survive bursts. I've been trying to follow the idea that Monk's should use stats like haste and crit over stamina, and have been having trouble surviving the melee rounds on Will of the Emperor. I assumed I just wasn't rotating cooldowns properly, but I think I had a bit of a stamina issue. I adjusted to some blue gems and we one-shot them with no problem on Sunday.

Thanks for all the advice!

MomysLidlMonsta · 01/23/13, 5:37 AM

Originally Posted by Kozaky

Thanks for the info, I tend to PB more often than I should, usually as soon as I see my stagger at yellow. On H Ta'yak my shuffle uptime has been pitiful recently, mainly because when I'm not tanking Tayak I'm spending my chi almost completely on chi wave while I still have vengance to help heal what I can. Would it be better to just stack shuffle during this time? I find myself doing this on almost all fights, except for H Wind Lord/Garalon.

It is helpful to build up a decent Shuffle cushion while you're not tanking (because the other tank has aggro or the boss isn't attacking at the moment like during the Will of the Emperor dance) so you can go mad with PB, Chi Wave and Guard while you are. I always try to maintain ~30sec Shuffle on those bosses.
That approach might cost a bit more healer mana, but gives you more security when the boss decides to just ignore your avoidance for a while.

Bemxuu · 01/23/13, 7:29 AM

Originally Posted by Pisshands

Allowing Shuffle to drop in order to Purify is a common mistake, and a significant one. The value of Stagger at which that tradeoff is worthwhile is dependent upon the target's damage per hit and amount of time spent without Shuffle, but suffice it to say that the value of Stagger needed would be significant (at least a Heavy Stagger in most scenarios). This problem is circular. By using Purifying Brew too often and losing uptime on Shuffle, a Monk loses substantial avoidance and takes more hits, sending Stagger upward and perpetuating the need to Purify too often.

The problem with stacking Stamina is that while it provides safe space for burst damage, it affords absolutely no damage reduction whatsoever. It is pure cushion, and we are a class that already possesses a built-in cushion of 20% (base) + 20% (Shuffle) + ~9% (Mastery) effective health in the form of Stagger.

I keep disagreeing with you so often it becomes a habit. Allowing Shuffle to drop to purify is viable only if you're past that huge damage burst you had. If you're expecting the same DTPS in the next seconds, do not let Shuffle buff fade. Even if it's red already. If you've been tanking for a while before that burst, you should have pooled sufficient amount of resources to perform that PB. If that's Mel'jarak, however, you will be struggling to establish that Shuffle to start purifying Stagger at the very beginning. If you choose to purify, you will get bursted down when Shuffle fades. I run heavy mastery build, but I still die if I let that happen and I still don't get that high levels of Stagger that it would be more dangerous to go on with it rather than loosing my Shuffle. So, TL;DR - don't loose Shuffle, unless you're 100% sure you know what are you doing.
Regarding "circular" - I'm afraid, you're wrong here; same mistake as with increased Stagger on Fortifying Brew. Going up from 0,2 avoidance to 0,4 avoidance is 25% damage reduction in average. Going up from 0,25 to 0,45 Stagger is 27% Stagger increase. They mostly negate each other Stagger-wise. One would simply suffer non-redistributed bigger hits when Shuffle's missing.

Originally Posted by drtyprior

I appreciate the clarification about having enough stamina to survive bursts. I've been trying to follow the idea that Monk's should use stats like haste and crit over stamina, and have been having trouble surviving the melee rounds on Will of the Emperor. I assumed I just wasn't rotating cooldowns properly, but I think I had a bit of a stamina issue. I adjusted to some blue gems and we one-shot them with no problem on Sunday.

Your first kill? I had the same issues on Will. In fact, I gave up following Venyasure's spreadsheet priorities there. Keep in mind, however, that you get more stamina as your gear gets better. Even though stamina provides more EH at lower item levels, soon enough you will hit the point where getting more EH (given that you still need any by that point) through mastery is a better choice, so keep tracking your performance regularly and update your gear accordingly.

Originally Posted by MomysLidlMonsta

It is helpful to build up a decent Shuffle cushion while you're not tanking (because the other tank has aggro or the boss isn't attacking at the moment like during the Will of the Emperor dance) so you can go mad with PB, Chi Wave and Guard while you are. I always try to maintain ~30sec Shuffle on those bosses.
That approach might cost a bit more healer mana, but gives you more security when the boss decides to just ignore your avoidance for a while.

Same here, Chi wave, when I have decent Vengeance. If I'm not tanking for a while already or preparing to take over, I would rather stack Shuffle.

Bemxuu · 01/23/13, 4:22 PM

From PTR:
Indomitable Primal Diamond - Meta - Gems - Items - WowDB (PTR)
Meta-gem slot:
+324 Stamina & Chance on being hit gain a 20% reduction to physical damage taken for 10 sec.

If that's what it reads, it will be the most beneficial to invest in on-hit damage reduction rather than avoidance. As our crit rating affects our average avoidance, this new phase of legendary reduces it's value as well. I guess, I'll stick to stacking mastery. It might become better for avoidance classes (druids and monks) if it is changed to reduce damage "on next X hits/damage instances".

drtyprior · 01/23/13, 6:05 PM

Originally Posted by Bemxuu

Your first kill? I had the same issues on Will. In fact, I gave up following Venyasure's spreadsheet priorities there. Keep in mind, however, that you get more stamina as your gear gets better. Even though stamina provides more EH at lower item levels, soon enough you will hit the point where getting more EH (given that you still need any by that point) through mastery is a better choice, so keep tracking your performance regularly and update your gear accordingly.

It wasn't our first kill, but it was our cleanest by far. Afterwards, we went on to get our first kill on Garalon!

Pisshands · 01/23/13, 9:07 PM

Originally Posted by Bemxuu

I keep disagreeing with you so often it becomes a habit. Allowing Shuffle to drop to purify is viable only if you're past that huge damage burst you had. If you're expecting the same DTPS in the next seconds, do not let Shuffle buff fade. Even if it's red already. If you've been tanking for a while before that burst, you should have pooled sufficient amount of resources to perform that PB. If that's Mel'jarak, however, you will be struggling to establish that Shuffle to start purifying Stagger at the very beginning. If you choose to purify, you will get bursted down when Shuffle fades. I run heavy mastery build, but I still die if I let that happen and I still don't get that high levels of Stagger that it would be more dangerous to go on with it rather than loosing my Shuffle. So, TL;DR - don't loose Shuffle, unless you're 100% sure you know what are you doing.
Regarding "circular" - I'm afraid, you're wrong here; same mistake as with increased Stagger on Fortifying Brew. Going up from 0,2 avoidance to 0,4 avoidance is 25% damage reduction in average. Going up from 0,25 to 0,45 Stagger is 27% Stagger increase. They mostly negate each other Stagger-wise. One would simply suffer non-redistributed bigger hits when Shuffle's missing.

Pretty easy math shows that dropping Shuffle is a significant damage taken increase, but a nominal Stagger increase, so, correct on that.

I think there is a misunderstanding here, so since I was not sufficiently clear, let me restate was I was alluding to from the beginning: Do not let Shuffle fall off in order to use Purifying Brew. To do so would be absolutely idiotic in virtually every scenario. The only reason you would use PB instead of maintaining Shuffle is if for some reason Shuffle no longer possesses value (e.g., after a taunt switch). Taking several Heavy Stagger ticks is worth less damage than taking an un-Shuffled punch in the face essentially every time. In AoE tanking scenarios, Shuffle is especially more valuable than using Purify.

With regards to using Chi Wave when not actively tanking. You will have nominal Vengeance and your Chi Wave will heal for garbage. You are better storing Shuffle until you have aggro and are rolling in Attack Power and using Chi Wave then when it will heal for considerably more. Unlike Chi Wave and Guard, your current AP does not affect the value of Shuffle as a damage reduction buff, so stack it when you are at low AP (AP obviously increases the damage of Blackout Kick significantly) and use the abilities that scale when you have tons of AP.

MomysLidlMonsta · 01/24/13, 4:31 AM

Originally Posted by Bemxuu

From PTR:
Indomitable Primal Diamond - Meta - Gems - Items - WowDB (PTR)
Meta-gem slot:
+324 Stamina & Chance on being hit gain a 20% reduction to physical damage taken for 10 sec.

If that's what it reads, it will be the most beneficial to invest in on-hit damage reduction rather than avoidance. As our crit rating affects our average avoidance, this new phase of legendary reduces it's value as well. I guess, I'll stick to stacking mastery. It might become better for avoidance classes (druids and monks) if it is changed to reduce damage "on next X hits/damage instances".

Let's see how the melee one turns out. It has an obscure procc and I can't imagine it going life with Stamina instead of agi/str either.

Crevan · 01/24/13, 9:41 AM

Originally Posted by MomysLidlMonsta

Let's see how the melee one turns out. It has an obscure procc and I can't imagine it going life with Stamina instead of agi/str either.

The melee legendary meta gives you pure damage, it won't affect tanking in any way.

And a small correction regarding the tanking meta - the proc seems to last 15 seconds, not 10.

Fiof · 01/24/13, 2:42 PM

Should I be stacking crit for the best improvement to the overall raid's success?

My understanding is that the difference between crit and haste for damage reduction is almost trivial and both are more than half the value of Agility. However, crit is way ahead of haste in the damage stat value.

My raid is not struggling because of tank deaths but we have a tougher time with some of the DPS checks. I have been stacking haste to try to squeeze as much damage reduction out of my character as I can but it seems like crit would be a better help to my raid.

Pisshands · 01/24/13, 7:35 PM

The listed statistic values are proportional to the stat weights provided in the spreadsheet by default, they are not hard and fast values, and they do not take Ascension into account. Check the spreadsheet with your own values and make the decision in collaboration with your healers.

Xyogan · 01/25/13, 1:18 AM

I've read what it says about Expertise, and I'm wondering if it's viable to take what one considers a comfortable level after hitting the 7.5% cap. I find that the level of parries I get at 10% expertise to be acceptable, which allows me to shift more stats into haste, and through the use of Ascension, crit.

One thing I'm curious about is what energy per second value we should shoot for, if there is even a certain one. I've read that 13.33 (repeating) is what's recommended to go for, i.e. around 9000 haste. I run with 4400 haste which gives me around 14 e/s. Wondering if I should make any changes, but I'm not really seeing any problems as far as damage taken.

Edit: Another thing I'm curious about is if encounter specific tips/tricks could be added to the guide. I'm a little unsure of what to do for Garalon to take less damage when I'm kiting.