Elitist Jerks Like Water - The Brewmaster's Resource [5/17/13]

 01/25/13, 6:06 AM #91 Pisshands Von Kaiser     Llarold Pandaren Monk   Bleeding Hollow I may consider an encounter-specific tips and tricks section, but that is not really the focus of the guide, and this tier is mostly over. The most basic math on Expertise since 5.0 is this: Expertise is a hit statistic that scales up to 15% instead of 7.5%. An additional 1% Expertise is more valuable at 0% Expertise than it is at 14% Expertise, but it is still more valuable than an equivalent amount of Haste, Crit or Mastery. 340 Expertise Rating provides 1% more chance to land attacks from 0-15%, and the amount of "hit" provided for each point of Expertise does not change until you acquire 5100 Expertise Rating. A Monk may be able to play without hitting the Expertise cap, but doing so is mathematically inferior, even if it works in a given scenario. Last edited by Pisshands : 01/26/13 at 10:05 AM.
 01/25/13, 7:06 AM #92 Taser Von Kaiser   Yummyumm Pandaren Monk   Lordaeron (EU) Hasterating mathematically generates more Chi than expertise. Posting from phone, but can add proof later if requested.
01/25/13, 9:49 AM   #93
Schmoopy
Von Kaiser

Gnome Rogue

Stormrage
 Originally Posted by Taser Hasterating mathematically generates more Chi than expertise. Posting from phone, but can add proof later if requested.
Proof for any blanket assertion should always be provided. So please consider this a request.

 01/25/13, 10:07 AM #94 Taser Von Kaiser   Yummyumm Pandaren Monk   Lordaeron (EU) Let's say that you are exp-hardcapped with 6000 hasterating = 14.11% haste + specced into Ascension Energy-Reg = 10 x 1.1 x 1.15 x 1.1411 = 14.43 Chi/Min = ((14.43 x 60) - (8 x 40)) / 40 + (8 x 2) = 29.65 Pretty straight forward as there are no misses. Now we are going to reforge 2550 exp-rating to hasterating = 8550 hasterating in total = 20.11% haste Energy-Reg = 10 x 1.1 x 1.15 x 1.2011 = 15.19 We get 8 x 2 x 0,925 = 14,8 Chi through KS. Energy-consumption is no longer 320 but (8 x 0,925 x 40) + (8 x 0,075 x 8 ) = 300,8. (Misses cost 8 Energy) Jabs = ((15.19 x 60) - 300,8 ) / (40 + 8 x 0,075) = 15.04 Chi through Jab That are 14.8 + 15.04 = 29.84 (considering that using EH on CD would increase this as Chi is granted on the heal not the dmg from this ability that would change to 29.9 ) Hope that is sufficient as an explantation.
01/25/13, 11:21 AM   #95
Pisshands
Von Kaiser

Pandaren Monk

Bleeding Hollow
 Originally Posted by Taser Let's say that you are exp-hardcapped with 6000 hasterating = 14.11% haste + specced into Ascension Energy-Reg = 10 x 1.1 x 1.15 x 1.1411 = 14.43 Chi/Min = ((14.43 x 60) - (8 x 40)) / 40 + (8 x 2) = 29.65 Pretty straight forward as there are no misses. Now we are going to reforge 2550 exp-rating to hasterating = 8550 hasterating in total = 20.11% haste Energy-Reg = 10 x 1.1 x 1.15 x 1.2011 = 15.19 We get 8 x 2 x 0,925 = 14,8 Chi through KS. Energy-consumption is no longer 320 but (8 x 0,925 x 40) + (8 x 0,075 x 8 ) = 300,8. (Misses cost 8 Energy) Jabs = ((15.19 x 60) - 300,8 ) / (40 + 8 x 0,075) = 15.04 Chi through Jab That are 14.8 + 15.04 = 29.84 (considering that using EH on CD would increase this as Chi is granted on the heal not the dmg from this ability that would change to 29.9 ) Hope that is sufficient as an explantation.
Your math as stated is correct, but you made a mistake and forgot a step, and your assertion is flawed. I dumb. The cost of a Jab when not Expertise capped is not:
((15.19 x 60) - 300,8 ) / (40 + 8 x 0,075) = 610.6 / 40.6 Energy, resulting in 15.04 Jabs.
It is:
((15.19 x 60) - 300,8 ) / (40 - 8 x 0,075) = 610.6 / 39.4 Energy, resulting in 15.49 Jabs. Also wrong. Jab costs 40 * .925 + 8 * .075 = 37.6 Energy. The step you forgot is that only 92.5% land, meaning we only generate 14.33 Chi 15.02 Chi The difference in landed attacks is why we reevaluated the cost.

14.33 + 14.8 = 29.13 Chi, lower than the previously stated 29.65 Chi per minute when Expertise capped.
15.02 + 14.8 = 29.8 Chi, .15 Chi per minute more than when Expertise capped. A gain of 1 Chi per ~7 minutes, so 1 per fight, maybe 2 on an end-instance boss.

Additionally, 60/8 = 7.5. You cannot KS 7.5 times per minute, so you need to truncate to 7 in reality or stay at 7.5 for a general case, not round up to 8. Since we can only generate whole number values of Chi, the same necessity for truncation applies there as well in practical applications. When solving for a general case, anything goes. To be fair, these are both minor nitpicks.

This has been debated and debunked on numerous occasions. Expertise hard-capping is the best stat gearing for Chi generation. Factor in the issue of parry chains (however infrequent) resulting in serious energy capping and dangerous lost uptime on Shuffle and the value of hard-capping becomes more apparent. Just do it. Still do it.

Last edited by Pisshands : 01/27/13 at 11:18 AM.

01/25/13, 2:14 PM   #96
MomysLidlMonsta
Glass Joe

Troll Monk

Eredar (EU)
 Originally Posted by Pisshands Your math as stated is correct, but you made a mistake and forgot a step, and your assertion is flawed as a result. The cost of a Jab when not Expertise capped is not: ((15.19 x 60) - 300,8 ) / (40 + 8 x 0,075) = 610.6 / 40.6 Energy, resulting in 15.04 Jabs. It is: ((15.19 x 60) - 300,8 ) / (40 - 8 x 0,075) = 610.6 / 39.4 Energy, resulting in 15.49 Jabs. The step you forgot is that only 92.5% land, meaning we only generate 14.33 Chi. The difference in landed attacks is why we reevaluated the cost. 14.33 + 14.8 = 29.13 Chi, lower than the previously stated 29.65 Chi per minute when Expertise capped. Additionally, 60/8 = 7.5. You cannot KS 7.5 times per minute, so you need to truncate to 7 in reality or stay at 7.5 for a general case, not round up to 8. Since we can only generate whole number values of Chi, the same necessity for truncation applies there as well in practical applications. When solving for a general case, anything goes. To be fair, these are both minor nitpicks. This has been debated and debunked on numerous occasions. Expertise hard-capping is the best stat gearing for Chi generation. Factor in the issue of parry chains (however infrequent) resulting in serious energy capping and dangerous lost uptime on Shuffle and the value of hard-capping becomes more apparent. Just do it.
Correcting half of a wrong calculation still gives wrong results:
5100 Exp, 6000haste:
14.44 energy/sec = 866.15energy/min
7.5KS cost 300energy, leaving us with 566.15energy/sec, giving us 14.15 Jabs.
For a total of 29.15 Chi/min

2550 Exp, 8550 Haste:
15.19energy/sec = 911.69energy/min
7.5*0.925=6.9375 unparried KS cost 277.5 energy
7.5*0.075=0.5625 parried KS cost 4.5 energy, leaving us with 629.69 energy.
Factoring in the parry chance a Jab costs 40 + 0.075*8 = 40.6 energy, giving us 15.51 Jabs
For a total of 29.38 Chi/min

So if you specced Ascension Haste is better for Chi generation than Expertise, irrespective of how much it has been debated. Factor in how situational the other benefits of Expertise are, it seems awfully simpleminded to promote hardcapping as the single best gearing strategy.
- Stagger falling off, because you got parried is only an issue for the first 10-15 seconds of a fight (where your still have plenty of tools at your disposal), or if you did something wrong (died, did not build Chi before the Boss became unattackable, etc.)
- As there is no reason to pool more than 70 energy during normal combat it would require 4 consecutive parries to cap energy with reasonable haste levels
- When attacking from behind any Expertise above 7.5% is completely wasted
- Also when attacking adds below boss level some Expertise is wasted
- I don't know about the current content, but not all bosses can parry while casting

Haste and Expertise are too close together in theory and too different in reality to make either one clearly superior.

01/25/13, 3:03 PM   #97
Pisshands
Von Kaiser

Pandaren Monk

Bleeding Hollow
 Originally Posted by MomysLidlMonsta Correcting half of a wrong calculation still gives wrong results: 5100 Exp, 6000haste: 14.44 energy/sec = 866.15energy/min 7.5KS cost 300energy, leaving us with 566.15energy/sec, giving us 14.15 Jabs. For a total of 29.15 Chi/min 2550 Exp, 8550 Haste: 15.19energy/sec = 911.69energy/min 7.5*0.925=6.9375 unparried KS cost 277.5 energy 7.5*0.075=0.5625 parried KS cost 4.5 energy, leaving us with 629.69 energy. Factoring in the parry chance a Jab costs 40 + 0.075*8 = 40.6 energy, giving us 15.51 Jabs For a total of 29.38 Chi/min So if you specced Ascension Haste is better for Chi generation than Expertise, irrespective of how much it has been debated. Factor in how situational the other benefits of Expertise are, it seems awfully simpleminded to promote hardcapping as the single best gearing strategy. - Stagger falling off, because you got parried is only an issue for the first 10-15 seconds of a fight (where your still have plenty of tools at your disposal), or if you did something wrong (died, did not build Chi before the Boss became unattackable, etc.) - As there is no reason to pool more than 70 energy during normal combat it would require 4 consecutive parries to cap energy with reasonable haste levels - When attacking from behind any Expertise above 7.5% is completely wasted - Also when attacking adds below boss level some Expertise is wasted - I don't know about the current content, but not all bosses can parry while casting Haste and Expertise are too close together in theory and too different in reality to make either one clearly superior.
You make a fair counterpoint, but make the same exact pair of mistakes.
A Jab does not cost more than 40 Energy. Ever. Come on.

A Jab costs 40 Energy 92.5% of the time and 8 Energy 7.5% of the time, and only generates Chi 92.5% of the time.
40 * .925 + 8 * .075 = 37.6 Energy per Jab. At 629.69 Energy per minute, this gives 629.69 / 37.6 = 16.75 Jabs = 15.49 Chi.

This gives 29.365 Chi per minute. Not every fight is so cut-and-dry to allow Stagger uptime be continually maintained (downtime fights, re:Amber-Shaper). I appreciate the ones that are, but for those that are not, being below Expertise cap can cause issues. Hard capping is a worthwhile gearing strategy. It's safer and the potential benefit is microscopic (29.365 / 29.15 = 0.7% increase in Chi generation). I am well aware that microscopic benefits are magnified when tanking content for which you are undergeared, but the difference in this scenario is roughly 1 Chi per 5 minutes, and results in a large loss in damage and a drop in reliability, both of which are rather vital in progression tanking (reliability moreso, of course). Not inaccurate, but eh, comes off whiny and bossy.

Last edited by Pisshands : 01/27/13 at 11:19 AM.

 01/25/13, 8:10 PM #98 Taser Von Kaiser   Yummyumm Pandaren Monk   Lordaeron (EU) KS was definitely my failure. Thought how many KS fit into 60 sec. calculating 60/8=7.5 and then writing down 8 and not 7.5. Correction following: Energy-Reg = 10 x 1.1 x 1.15 x 1.1411 = 14.43 Chi/Min = ((14.43 x 60) - (7.5 x 40)) / 40 + (8 x 2) = 29.145 Pretty straight forward as there are no misses. Now we are going to reforge 2550 exp-rating to hasterating = 8550 hasterating in total = 20.11% haste Energy-Reg = 10 x 1.1 x 1.15 x 1.2011 = 15.19 We get 7.5 x 2 x 0,925 = 13.875 Chi through KS. Energy-consumption is no longer 300 but (7.5 x 0,925 x 40) + (7.5 x 0,075 x 8 ) = 282. (Misses cost 8 Energy) Jabs = ((15.19 x 60) - 282 ) / (40 + 8 x 0,075) = 15.50 Chi through Jab That are 13.875 + 15.50 = 29.375 Now let me explain why my calculation of Jabs is indeed correct (99.9%). My assumption is that after each missed Jab you try to get of the next jab to generate Chi. The missed Jab costs 8 Energy that are lost. To get the number of actual jabs that land you can add the cost of the missed jabs to the base of 40. That's 40 + 8 x 0.075 = 40.6 Reality 1000 jabs 75 miss = 75 x 8 = 600 energy 925 hits = 925 x 40 = 37000 energy total energy cost = 37600 925 chi were generated 37600 / 925 = 40,65 per jab There is a small difference as the 40 + 8 x 0.075 = 40.6 is a simplified calculation. But in the end you get a difference of 0.01 Chi per minute. The overall difference in chi generation between expertise and haste is really small. But I think that in a guide that should be mentioned, especially at a place like EJ. Monks can be played in some different ways and noone can deny that both of the aforementioned ways are viable. If microscopic differences didn't matter then there is no point discussing about that. Thanks to MomysLidlMonsta for the correction of my math. And thanks to Pisshands for the guide and the discussion...or sort of. At least I learned something. Next time I am going to post some potentially controversial things, I am going to have my math correct.
01/26/13, 12:05 AM   #99
Pisshands
Von Kaiser

Pandaren Monk

Bleeding Hollow
 Originally Posted by Taser KS was definitely my failure. Thought how many KS fit into 60 sec. calculating 60/8=7.5 and then writing down 8 and not 7.5. Correction following: Energy-Reg = 10 x 1.1 x 1.15 x 1.1411 = 14.43 Chi/Min = ((14.43 x 60) - (7.5 x 40)) / 40 + (8 x 2) = 29.145 Pretty straight forward as there are no misses. Now we are going to reforge 2550 exp-rating to hasterating = 8550 hasterating in total = 20.11% haste Energy-Reg = 10 x 1.1 x 1.15 x 1.2011 = 15.19 We get 7.5 x 2 x 0,925 = 13.875 Chi through KS. Energy-consumption is no longer 300 but (7.5 x 0,925 x 40) + (7.5 x 0,075 x 8 ) = 282. (Misses cost 8 Energy) Jabs = ((15.19 x 60) - 282 ) / (40 + 8 x 0,075) = 15.50 Chi through Jab That are 13.875 + 15.50 = 29.375 Now let me explain why my calculation of Jabs is indeed correct (99.9%). My assumption is that after each missed Jab you try to get of the next jab to generate Chi. The missed Jab costs 8 Energy that are lost. To get the number of actual jabs that land you can add the cost of the missed jabs to the base of 40. That's 40 + 8 x 0.075 = 40.6 Reality 1000 jabs 75 miss = 75 x 8 = 600 energy 925 hits = 925 x 40 = 37000 energy total energy cost = 37600 925 chi were generated 37600 / 925 = 40,65 per jab There is a small difference as the 40 + 8 x 0.075 = 40.6 is a simplified calculation. But in the end you get a difference of 0.01 Chi per minute. The overall difference in chi generation between expertise and haste is really small. But I think that in a guide that should be mentioned, especially at a place like EJ. Monks can be played in some different ways and noone can deny that both of the aforementioned ways are viable. If microscopic differences didn't matter then there is no point discussing about that. Thanks to MomysLidlMonsta for the correction of my math. And thanks to Pisshands for the guide and the discussion...or sort of. At least I learned something. Next time I am going to post some potentially controversial things, I am going to have my math correct.
Yeah, the reasoning behind your Jab cost makes sense and the error bar is tiny. I am still a proponent of Expertise hard-capping, but I am operating off a pre-5.1 mindset, when it was absolutely mathematically superior. It actually wasn't, I'm an ass. As of right now, it is quite clearly a matter of choice, still an ass.

Now, just for the sake of argument and comparing it at my gear level, I will use my own gear values in this same comparison: 425.19 Haste Rating = 1% Haste
8640 Haste (20.33%, 15.22 EPS) and 5100 Expertise reforged into 11140 Haste (26.2%, 15.96 EPS) and 2500 Expertise Rating.

15.22 Energy / Sec * 60 Sec / Min = 913.2 Energy / Min
7.5 KS = 300 Energy
913.2 Energy - 300 Energy = 613.2 Jab Energy
613.2 Energy / 40 Energy / Jab = 15.33 Jabs

15 KS Chi + 15.33 Jab Chi = 30.33 Total Chi

15.96 Energy / Sec * 60 Sec / Min = 957.6 Energy / Min
7.5 KS = .925 * 40 * 7.5 + .075 * 8 * 7.5 = 277.5 + 4.5 = 282 Energy for 6.9375 KS = 13.875 Chi
957.6 Energy - 282 Energy = 675.6 Energy for Jabs.
Jabs cost 37.6 Energy as shown prior.
675.6 Energy / 37.6 Energy / Jab = 17.97 Jabs
17.97 Jabs * .925 Success Rate = 16.62 Chi

13.875 Chi + 16.62 Chi = 30.495 Total Chi

So in this situation it is only a 0.5% increase in Chi generation over time, which is actually lower than the previously compared numbers. Very odd, I would have expect Haste value to be more valuable at higher levels, but I guess that doesn't make sense. Let's compare 0 Haste and 5100 Expertise with 2500 Haste and Expertise.

12.65 Energy / Sec * 60 Sec / Min = 759 Energy / Min
7.5 KS = 300 Energy
759 Energy - 300 Energy = 459 Jab Energy
459 Energy / 40 Energy / Jab = 11.475 Jabs

15 KS Chi + 11.475 Jab Chi = 26.475 Total Chi

2500 / 425.19 = 5.88% Haste
10 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.0588 = 13.39 EPS
13.39 Energy / Sec * 60 Sec / Min = 803.4 Energy / Min
7.5 KS = .925 * 40 * 7.5 + .075 * 8 * 7.5 = 277.5 + 4.5 = 282 Energy for 6.9375 KS = 13.875 Chi
803.4 Energy - 282 Energy = 521.4 Energy for Jabs.
Jabs cost 37.6 Energy as shown prior.
521.4 Energy / 37.6 Energy / Jab = 13.87 Jabs
13.87 Jabs * .925 Success Rate = 12.83 Chi

13.875 Chi + 12.83 Chi = 26.705 Total Chi

This is the widest margin in Chi generation increase through Haste reforging seen thus far, and so I think the idea is that when at low haste values, Expertise hard-capping may not be a necessity. However, there is one simple problem with this logic, it assumes taking Ascension at low Haste values, which is extremely bad. If we instead take Power Strikes, then Haste suffers a drop in value and Expertise again reigns supreme. Actually no, the margin is just slimmer.

Ultimately, I think this discussion pretty clearly demonstrates that Haste is a superior statistic for Chi generation when you take Ascension (to the tune of being about .6% better). I will still advocate Expertise capping due to the other benefits (damage, reliability), but I can not argue with the cold, hard math. Haste stacking definitely works as a gearing strategy. It circumvents some of the problems caused by Expertise capping, but creates other problems that I feel are more significant.

Last edited by Pisshands : 01/26/13 at 2:56 PM.

01/26/13, 6:11 AM   #100
Bemxuu
Von Kaiser

Troll Druid

Ясеневый лес (EU)
 If we instead take Power Strikes, then Haste suffers a drop in value and Expertise again reigns supreme.
And another one ; ) Current PS mechanics means you get 1 extra Chi as long as your Jab hits at least once in that 20s (or was it 22?) window. It only devalues hit/exp as you get that 1Chi/20s regardless of your hit/exp. Previously, 20s could increase to 21-22-23 etc due to bad luck with dodges/parries, but not now.

01/26/13, 10:05 AM   #101
Pisshands
Von Kaiser

Pandaren Monk

Bleeding Hollow
 Originally Posted by Bemxuu And another one ; ) Current PS mechanics means you get 1 extra Chi as long as your Jab hits at least once in that 20s (or was it 22?) window. It only devalues hit/exp as you get that 1Chi/20s regardless of your hit/exp. Previously, 20s could increase to 21-22-23 etc due to bad luck with dodges/parries, but not now.
Good point. Yeah, since PS now has a fixed 20 second restack window regardless of when it is consumed, it does work a lot more effectively when not Expertise capped.

Let's run through the same numbers I used in my last post, but with PS instead of Ascension:

13.23 Energy / Sec * 60 Sec / Min = 793.8 Energy / Min
7.5 KS = 300 Energy
793.8 Energy - 300 Energy = 493.8 Jab Energy
493.8 Energy / 40 Energy / Jab = 12.35 Jabs

15 KS Chi + 12.35 Jab Chi + 3 PS Chi = 30.35 Total Chi

13.88 Energy / Sec * 60 Sec / Min = 832.8 Energy / Min
7.5 KS = .925 * 40 * 7.5 + .075 * 8 * 7.5 = 277.5 + 4.5 = 282 Energy for 6.9375 KS = 13.875 Chi
832.8 Energy - 282 Energy = 550.8 Energy for Jabs.
Jabs cost 37.6 Energy as shown prior.
550.8 Energy / 37.6 Energy / Jab = 14.65 Jabs
14.65 Jabs * .925 Success Rate = 13.55 Chi

13.875 Chi + 13.55 Chi + 3 PS Chi = 30.425 Total Chi

11 Energy / Sec * 60 Sec / Min = 660 Energy / Min
7.5 KS = 300 Energy
660 Energy - 300 Energy = 360 Jab Energy
360 Energy / 40 Energy / Jab = 9 Jabs

15 KS Chi + 9 Jab Chi + 3 PS Chi = 27 Total Chi

2500 / 425.19 = 5.88% Haste
10 * 1.1 * 1.0588 = 11.65 EPS
11.65 Energy / Sec * 60 Sec / Min = 699 Energy / Min
7.5 KS = .925 * 40 * 7.5 + .075 * 8 * 7.5 = 277.5 + 4.5 = 282 Energy for 6.9375 KS = 13.875 Chi
699 Energy - 282 Energy = 417 Energy for Jabs.
Jabs cost 37.6 Energy as shown prior.
417 Energy / 37.6 Energy / Jab = 11.09 Jabs
11.09 Jabs * .925 Success Rate = 10.26 Chi

13.875 Chi + 10.26 + 3 Chi = 27.135 Total Chi

With PS:
At 8640 Haste, dropping 2500 Expertise for Haste grants a 30.425 / 30.35 = 0.25% increase in Chi generation
At 0 Haste, dropping 2500 Expertise for Haste grants a 27.135 / 27 = 0.5% increase in Chi generation

With Ascension:
At 8640 Haste, dropping 2500 Expertise for Haste grants a 30.495 / 30.33 = 0.54% increase in Chi generation
At 0 Haste, dropping 2500 Expertise for Haste grants a 26.705 / 26.475 = 0.87% increase in Chi generation

What we learn from this is fairly simple. Haste is superior to Expertise for Chi generation, regardless of whether you take Ascension or PS. It is, obviously, more valuable if you take Ascension. The difference in 5100 Expertise and 8640 Haste and 2500 Expertise and 11140 Haste is a little over one half of a one percent increase with Ascension, and one quarter of a one percent increase with PS. There are several things not being taken into account in all of this assessment, for example: 100 starting energy is not factored in at all, and it has less relative value the more energy you generate during the fight (function of fight length and EPS), meaning it is more valuable when using PS over Ascension, and when using Expertise capping over Haste stacking. Heroism is also never considered, which favors Ascension and Haste stacking and also has its proportional value affected by fight length.

This is a fairly complex quandary.

Last edited by Pisshands : 01/26/13 at 10:15 AM.

 01/27/13, 6:02 AM #102 MomysLidlMonsta Glass Joe   Shaizan Troll Monk   Eredar (EU) Guess I used the wrong words for the 40.6 energy cost in my post. It's not really the cost for 1 Jab but the cost to get 1 Chit through Jabs, because if you got parried you still have 32 energy left to Jab again. Granted the 40.6 are still an estimate. The correct amount would be: 0.925*40 + 0.075*(8 + 0.925*40 + 0.075*(8 + ...)) But I didn't bother calculating the limes of that. Edit: removed the Latex stuff Last edited by MomysLidlMonsta : 01/27/13 at 6:55 AM.
01/27/13, 12:40 PM   #103
Pisshands
Von Kaiser

Pandaren Monk

Bleeding Hollow
 Originally Posted by MomysLidlMonsta Guess I used the wrong words for the 40.6 energy cost in my post. It's not really the cost for 1 Jab but the cost to get 1 Chit through Jabs, because if you got parried you still have 32 energy left to Jab again. Granted the 40.6 are still an estimate. The correct amount would be: 0.925*40 + 0.075*(8 + 0.925*40 + 0.075*(8 + ...)) But I didn't bother calculating the limes of that. Edit: removed the Latex stuff
Yeah, the margin of error is small enough. I that all of this discussion basically establishes that within these numerical confines that Haste is superior to Expertise for Chi generation. The margin is slim, but margins are always slim in these kinds of comparisons.

One issue with the idea of pure Haste gearing that I do take issue with is this: because of the secondary stat distributions on gear we have at our disposal, dropping down to, say, 2500 Expertise isn't always possible. I can not actually reforge my gear to be below 2800 Expertise with the pieces I am currently wearing. I bring this up because all of this discussion reflects one of the most important elements of any stat discussion that hasn't been brought up recently: You can't examine stats in a vacuum. Questions like "How much Haste should I have before going for Crit?" are exactly within this realm. Stat values shift based upon other statistic values and a flat list of numerical stat weights is actually kind of useless. The relative values are useful, and the degree of relation is kind of useful, but a set of stat weights derived for a case of... say 5000 Haste, 3000 Crit, 1500 Mastery, 2550 Expertise and 1250 Hit is going to be inaccurate at 9500 Haste, 2000 Crit, 800 Mastery, 5100 Expertise and 2550 Hit.

The prior comparison of dropping 2500 Expertise for Haste is not a static statistic comparison, which is good, but I want to be clear so that people just reading the thread and not doing math on their own don't get the wrong idea, so let me demonstrate something.

I am going to compare Chi per minute increase when gaining 10% Haste (4252 Haste Rating) at 2550 Expertise and at 5100 Expertise. I will assume Hit capping and a base of 15% Haste in both scenarios. I will assume Ascension in both scenarios. I will not truncate values because I want this to be a mathematical comparison, not a real-world scenario.

15% Haste, 5100 Exp:
10 EPS * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.15 = 14.55 EPS
14.55 Energy / Sec * 60 Sec / Min = 873 Energy / Min
7.5 KS = 300 Energy
873 Energy - 300 Energy = 573 Jab Energy
573 Energy / 40 Energy / Jab = 14.33 Jabs

15 KS Chi + 14.33 Jab Chi = 29.33 Total Chi

25% Haste, 5100 Exp:
10 EPS * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.25 = 15.81 EPS
15.81 Energy / Sec * 60 Sec / Min = 948.6 Energy / Min
7.5 KS = 300 Energy
948.6 Energy - 300 Energy = 648.6 Jab Energy
648.6 Energy / 40 Energy / Jab = 16.215 Jabs

15 Chi + 16.215 Chi = 31.22 Total Chi

31.22 - 29.33 = 1.89 Chi per minute

15% Haste, 2550 Exp:
10 EPS * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.15 = 14.55 EPS
14.55 Energy / Sec * 60 Sec / Min = 873 Energy / Min
7.5 KS = .925 * 40 * 7.5 + .075 * 8 * 7.5 = 277.5 + 4.5 = 282 Energy for 6.9375 KS = 13.875 Chi
873 Energy - 282 Energy = 591 Energy for Jabs.
Jabs cost 37.6 Energy as shown prior.
591 Energy / 37.6 Energy / Jab = 15.72 Jabs
15.72 Jabs * .925 Success Rate = 14.54 Chi

13.875 Chi + 14.54 Chi = 28.42 Total Chi

25% Haste, 2550 Exp:
10 EPS * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.25 = 15.81 EPS
15.81 Energy / Sec * 60 Sec / Min = 948.6 Energy / Min
7.5 KS = .925 * 40 * 7.5 + .075 * 8 * 7.5 = 277.5 + 4.5 = 282 Energy for 6.9375 KS = 13.875 Chi
948.6 Energy - 282 Energy = 666.6 Energy for Jabs.
Jabs cost 37.6 Energy as shown prior.
666.6 Energy / 37.6 Energy / Jab = 17.73 Jabs
17.73 Jabs * .925 Success Rate = 16.40 Chi

13.875 Chi + 16.40 Chi = 30.275 Total Chi

30.275 - 28.42 = 1.855 Chi per minute

When Expertise capped, an increase from 15% Haste to 25% Haste provides 1.89 Chi per minute, whereas at only 2550 Expertise, the same increase in Haste provides only 1.86 Chi.

To make as simple a conclusion as possible, Expertise makes Haste more valuable. Stat values are relative, what's important is understanding the way they interact with each other and the degree to which they affect each other's value. In this case, Haste receives about a 2% increase in Chi generation value from a 7.5% increase in chance to "Hit".

 01/27/13, 4:08 PM #104 Taser Von Kaiser   Yummyumm Pandaren Monk   Lordaeron (EU) Every math, no matter if spreadsheet or some small calculations, is based in some kind of vacuum. And I hope that all of us know this. Encounter-mechanics can mix things up. Even a simple tank swap can totally destroy such calculations. But I love calculating such things. Haste or Expertise. 1h or 2h. And I am glad that we got a good discussion on this matter. The monk tank has more than 1 viable way of playing him. Remembering the beginning of WotLK, what I loved most about DKs was the possibility to tank in all three specs. Each of them with indidual strengths and weaknesses. The Brewmaster is a bit like the DK was in the beginning. Not 1 single way to go that everybody needs to follow. In my eyes that is the beauty of this spec. Haste-tank? OK. Exp-hardcapping? OK. Crit-tank? Also OK. Mastery-tank? Even in 5.1 it is OK. As long as you manage to stay alive one way is as good as the others. There are so many small differences, each with special pros and cons. In live gameplay it is just reduced to the skill of the player. Edit: Been working on a spreadsheet to have some of our haste-expertise calcultions fully automized. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...UJHcWpDR1VoRnc Suggestions are welcome. Some conclusions of mine: - power strikes is neutral, as the 3 chi are guaranteed no matter how much expertise/haste you are stacking - haste is only superior when taking ascension - ascension scales with expertise (nothing new, but I nearly forgot about it) - the decision between PS and ascension most of the time has a bigger impact on Chi regeneration than between haste and expertise. Last edited by Taser : 01/28/13 at 8:08 AM. Reason: Adding link to avoid double post
 01/28/13, 2:52 PM #105 Kraun Glass Joe   Pouljin Troll Shaman   Ghostlands This discourse on Haste verses Expertise has been quite informative! As a side note just because I didn't see it mentioned here is that another bonus of haste over expertise - especially if it gets you to the point where ascension becomes the goto choice - is that it plays very well with desperate measures reducing the time required to generate the haste required to spam expel harm.... Just a thought.

 Elitist Jerks Like Water - The Brewmaster's Resource [5/17/13]