Like Water - The Brewmaster's Resource [5/21/13] - Page 14

lairpie · 03/07/13, 12:34 PM

Even if juju procced right on it's average proc time, it would be pretty bad. I know for windwalker you gain 150 mastery for a loss of 300 average agi compared to a 2/2 Bottle. I don't see why those numbers would be much different for brewmaster.

Pisshands · 03/07/13, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by lairpie

Even if juju procced right on it's average proc time, it would be pretty bad. I know for windwalker you gain 150 mastery for a loss of 300 average agi compared to a 2/2 Bottle. I don't see why those numbers would be much different for brewmaster.

Yeah, it's really unimpressive for BrM regardless of whether the current procrate is intended. My larger point that I guess I didn't conclusive reach is: that should never be the case for new gear. Blizzard can fix that pretty easily by giving the procrate healthy boost, and they absolutely should if it's not even performing on the level of gear from last tier that's 12 ilvl below.

Crevan · 03/11/13, 8:48 PM

Some more observations on RPPM trinkets.

I've been forced to tank this whole week for our raids, and it just so happened that I got the Renataki's Soul Charm right away. The way I'm looking at it, it's gonna be a good trinket regardless or the proc if you're planning to hard-cap expertise. Now, my experience with it so far was that the proc is still rather unpredictable and unreliable, but when the stars aligned, it was amazing.

For example, on Durumu, it procced 4 times in the first 150 seconds of the fight, but then did not at all until the end (17.9% uptime).

On Twin Consorts, the 5 procs were spread out very evenly throughout the fight (16.4% uptime).

And then on Iron Qon, the trinket went nuts and procced 11 times (33.9% uptime), making me second on damage done for the fight.

I am definitely holding on to it for now, especially for when potentially pushing some extra dps is more important than reliably reducing/avoiding damage.

Portrero · 03/12/13, 4:42 AM

Anyone have a ballpark on how much the 2pc increases the value of crit? I just got it and even reforged out of crit (~4k) I have a very high uptime on either EB or Staggering (the 2pc). I don't think it would be impossible to get it up to 100%.

SkagasmAddict · 03/12/13, 7:09 AM

That's going to depend on whether you've capped your Hit stats and your Haste, but assuming you're Hit/Expertise capped and using a Polearm (3.3 weapon speed = 2.75 charges per crit) and you have even a little haste (~7% to reach a 2 sec attack speed). You only need 36.36% Crit (2/5.5) to expect something close to full up-time between the two buffs.

Pisshands · 03/12/13, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by SkagasmAddict

That's going to depend on whether you've capped your Hit stats and your Haste, but assuming you're Hit/Expertise capped and using a Polearm (3.3 weapon speed = 2.75 charges per crit) and you have even a little haste (~7% to reach a 2 sec attack speed). You only need 36.36% Crit (2/5.5) to expect something close to full up-time between the two buffs.

Hit and expertise have no bearing on crit chance. You have never had to hit in order to crit. Easy enough to forget, since it defies logic.

So, what I can give you is the minimum amount of crit required by weapon type to ensure 50% uptime on EB, which would result in full coverage in a completely ideal scenario.

Here is the table of EB procs from crits from the main post:

Weapon Speed	Minimum Charges per crit	Maximum Charges per crit
2.6 (1h)	1 (50%)	2 (50%)
3.3 (Staff)	2 (25%)	3 (75%)
3.6 (Polearm)	3 (100%)

So, the procs per crit from dual wielding 1h's is 1.5, 2.75 from a staff and 3.0 from a polearm.
Let's assume 20% Haste from gear, which is easily attainable right now.

For 1h's, Swing Speed = Base Weapon Speed / (1.2 Haste * 10% raid buff)
2.6 / (1.2 * 1.1) = 1.97 swing time
Divide by 2 since we're dual wielding, and we have .98 seconds per auto attack, and 1.5 seconds of EB per crit.
In order to gain full uptime on EB, we would need .98 / 1.5 = 65.7% Crit chance
To gain full uptime on EB and 2pc, we only need half that much crit, so for Dual-Wielding with 20% Haste, 32.9% Crit Chance in the absolute ideal conditions will result in full uptime of EB and t15 2-pc.

For Staves, Swing Speed = Base Weapon Speed / (1.2 Haste * 1.4 * 10% raid buff)
3.3 / (1.2 * 1.4 * 1.1) = 1.79 swing time
1.79 / 2.75 = 65.1% Crit chance required for full EB uptime
When using a Staff, a minimum of 32.5% Crit chance is required for full uptime of EB and t15 2-pc.

For Polearms, Swing Speed = Base Weapon Speed / (1.2 Haste * 1.4 * 10% raid buff)
3.6 / (1.2 * 1.4 * 1.1) = 1.95 swing time
1.95 / 3 = 65.0% Crit chance required for full EB uptime
When using a Polearm, a minimum of 32.5% Crit chance is required for full uptime of EB and t15 2-pc.

As was established a long time ago, the difference between weapon types is very small, so use whatever is the best available. I just wanted to demonstrate how meaningless the difference between the types is. Now, let's compare 20% Haste with 0% Haste and 10% Haste.

I'll assume Dual Wielding, since I currently am (when Thunderforged fists drop and the Rogue doesn't want them, I guess I'm not 2h anymore):
Starting with 0 Haste, for 1h's, Swing Speed = Base Weapon Speed / (10% raid buff)
2.6 / (1.1) = 2.36 swing time - divide by 2 since it's dual wielding to get a 1.18 sec swing time.
1.18 / 1.5 = 78.7% Crit chance required for full EB uptime
With 0 Haste, a minimum of 39.3% Crit chance is required for full uptime of EB and t15 2-pc.

Trying again with 10% Haste, for 1h's, Swing Speed = Base Weapon Speed / (1.1 Haste * 10% raid buff)
2.6 / (1.1 * 1.1) = 2.15 swing time - divide by 2 since it's dual wielding to get a 1.07 sec swing time.
1.07 / 1.5 = 71.6% Crit chance required for full EB uptime
With 10% Haste, a minimum of 35.8% Crit chance is required for full uptime of EB and t15 2-pc.

Let me put these values into a table so they can be read more quickly:

Haste %	Crit needed for full coverage of EB/2pc	Percent change from prior breakpoint
0%	39.3%	N/A
10%	35.8%	3.5%
20%	32.9%	2.9%
30%	30.3%	2.6%
40%	28.1%	2.2%
50%	26.3%	1.8%

So, I use the term "breakpoint" very loosely there, but I think we can clearly see that Haste provides a solid increase to the value of crit for EB while also having sharply diminishing returns.

I think this is just more support for my prior argument that Haste is a good stat up to about 8-9k-ish, then its value really fades away.

Anyhow, assuming a reasonably good value of Haste, around 32.5-33% Crit after suppression is where you should be able to have full uptime on EB and t15 2pc, assuming reasonably favorable RNG and excellence of execution.

SkagasmAddict · 03/13/13, 5:06 AM

Originally Posted by Pisshands

I think this is just more support for my prior argument that Haste is a good stat up to about 8-9k-ish, then its value really fades away.

What I saw in that table was a gearing decision of 10% Haste or 3.5% Crit (or 2.9% in the 10-20 range). Even with the difference in rating conversion Crit is still going to be much better in providing Elusive Brew uptime (10*425.19-3.5*600= 2151.9 rating differential). Obviously Haste has additional value outside of Elusive Brew (Chi Generation and Gift of the Ox), but even before this I was questioning that accepted notion that strolling around with ~20% Haste was a great idea.

Doesn't it require a fairly low Haste value to maintain Shuffle, Guard close to on CD, and Purifying Brew relatively frequently?

Let's run through a quick example...
In 5 mins you need:
* 300 secs of Shuffle (divided by 6 = 50 Blackout Kicks) : 100 Chi
* 10 Guards : 20 Chi
* 20 Purifying Brews (1 every 15 secs on avg): 20 Chi
TOTAL: 140 Chi

I'll use Power Strikes just because it's consistent across Haste Values and more consistent than Chi Brew across time intervals:
140*40=100+EnergyPerSecond*260+EPS*40*1.3+(300/8*40)+(300/20*40)
5600-(100+1500+600)=312*EPS
3400=312*EPS
EPS = 10.897

If there's no error in that you need 0 Haste to maintain that rotation.

Granted: 1) There's less room for sub-optimal play without that Haste; 2) Scenarios where Hero is used late in the fight will make things tighter; 3) If you have to use Purifying Brew more aggressively the Chi demands may be too tight. But, it's basically impossible to have 0 Haste anyway and I feel Haste in the 2-4k range will likely provide you with that wiggle room to be more adaptable.

That leaves only Gift of the Ox procs to make up that Elusive Brew differential which I won't even pretend to try to account for.

Netukka · 03/16/13, 7:24 PM

I got both Talisman of Bloodlust from Primordius and Vial from Dark Animus today. Quick observations.

-Talisman sucks. Completely. If the buff lasted 20 seconds, then maybe it could actually get stacked. But with 10 sec duration and 3.3 RPPM? No chance. Maybe during hero you will see 2-3 stacks regularly. Would not recommend at all.
-Vial stacks 3 times as was on PTR. Short test without mastery buff showed that at 29k mastery I had 36% extra stagger. Add in base + shuffle + Fort Brew and you are sitting at a quite a comfortable stagger of 96%. With 3k mastery from raid buff and some gearing, youll hit 100% stagger. Should be very good on fights with constant adds (Horridon, Tortos).
-....Which raises a funny question which I didnt test, can you actually die to physical damage during this period of 100% stagger? Since stagger damage cannot kill you and theoretically you do not actually take any direct physical damage, everything is just added to your ever growing pile of stagger. But this is obviously only during Fort Brew, but could make for a fun extension to berserk tanking, if for some magical reason you happened to have 3 stacks of the trinket buff up.

Edit: I guess you could make the same effect of immortality during 3 stacks of the trinket happen with t15 2pc bonus + 8% of extra mastery gemming/reforging, But still. Only for AoE fights.

Portrero · 03/17/13, 3:53 AM

Do you have any logs on uptime for the vial? I'm sure it will vary a lot by fight. We had one drop and our DK took it and tried an MSV LFR with it and had uptimes of 0%, 8%, and 15% on the 3 fights.

Netukka · 03/17/13, 6:31 AM

Originally Posted by Portrero

Do you have any logs on uptime for the vial? I'm sure it will vary a lot by fight. We had one drop and our DK took it and tried an MSV LFR with it and had uptimes of 0%, 8%, and 15% on the 3 fights.

Didnt test it on the later bosses since no real adds to speak off, but at least next reset Ill test it on Horridon and Tortos HC.

Ergil · 03/17/13, 1:20 PM

Hello, a few pages ago it was pointed out, that our 4pc bonus is not bad, but also not overwhelming. Pisshands speaks of ~2 energy/second. What I have been wondering is, if it might be worth using 2pc BM and 2pc WW. I personally am not really good with maths in WoW so someone else might try to compare these two boni. Another reason might be, that the DPS set's helmet is quite nicely itemized with hit/haste meaning we could equip 3 instead of only two tier peices with haste on them (and helmet is a good piece for item budget). I'd probably try something like legs + gloves from the tank set and helmet + whatever we can get our hands on from the DPS set.

Pisshands · 03/17/13, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by Ergil

Hello, a few pages ago it was pointed out, that our 4pc bonus is not bad, but also not overwhelming. Pisshands speaks of ~2 energy/second. What I have been wondering is, if it might be worth using 2pc BM and 2pc WW. I personally am not really good with maths in WoW so someone else might try to compare these two boni. Another reason might be, that the DPS set's helmet is quite nicely itemized with hit/haste meaning we could equip 3 instead of only two tier peices with haste on them (and helmet is a good piece for item budget). I'd probably try something like legs + gloves from the tank set and helmet + whatever we can get our hands on from the DPS set.

The WW 2pc is a 15% chance to generate a 10 Energy sphere every time a Chi-generating ability is used.

Assume 15 EpS with ~8500 Haste and Ascension.

Using an 8 second window, we generate 15 * 8 = 120 Energy per 8 seconds.
This equates to 1 Keg Smash and 2 Jabs every 8 seconds, meaning 3 chances to proc the 2 pc.

3 * 15% = .45
.45 * 10 = 4.5 Energy per 8 seconds.
4.5 / 8 = .5625 Energy per second

Even if ~2 EpS is a high estimate for t15 4pc tank bonus (I actually think it's incredibly low in normal tanking scenarios), bonus-wise 4pc tank t15 is vastly superior to 2pc tank and 2pc ww.

The proc chance on the WW 2pc would need to be ~55% for it to be worth ~2 EpS.

Larra^ · 03/18/13, 9:57 AM

Originally Posted by Netukka

I got both Talisman of Bloodlust from Primordius and Vial from Dark Animus today. Quick observations.

-Talisman sucks. Completely. If the buff lasted 20 seconds, then maybe it could actually get stacked. But with 10 sec duration and 3.3 RPPM? No chance. Maybe during hero you will see 2-3 stacks regularly. Would not recommend at all.
-Vial stacks 3 times as was on PTR. Short test without mastery buff showed that at 29k mastery I had 36% extra stagger. Add in base + shuffle + Fort Brew and you are sitting at a quite a comfortable stagger of 96%. With 3k mastery from raid buff and some gearing, youll hit 100% stagger. Should be very good on fights with constant adds (Horridon, Tortos).
-....Which raises a funny question which I didnt test, can you actually die to physical damage during this period of 100% stagger? Since stagger damage cannot kill you and theoretically you do not actually take any direct physical damage, everything is just added to your ever growing pile of stagger. But this is obviously only during Fort Brew, but could make for a fun extension to berserk tanking, if for some magical reason you happened to have 3 stacks of the trinket buff up.

Edit: I guess you could make the same effect of immortality during 3 stacks of the trinket happen with t15 2pc bonus + 8% of extra mastery gemming/reforging, But still. Only for AoE fights.

I got talisman last week and I found it being pretty amazing

On our last kill it had ~60% uptime with higher uptime at 2-3 procs rather than 1. Had a few 4-5 stacks as well (at pull & at hero). This ontop the fact that it has static agi makes it pretty awesome.

Vial on the other hand is just trash imo, tried it a bit and it's more or less a trinket with passive dodge and a non-existant mastery proc.

Netukka · 03/18/13, 6:08 PM

Originally Posted by Larra^

I got talisman last week and I found it being pretty amazing

On our last kill it had ~60% uptime with higher uptime at 2-3 procs rather than 1. Had a few 4-5 stacks as well (at pull & at hero). This ontop the fact that it has static agi makes it pretty awesome.

Vial on the other hand is just trash imo, tried it a bit and it's more or less a trinket with passive dodge and a non-existant mastery proc.

Could you link your logs? 60% uptime sounds reasonable with 20% haste, but stacking that much sounds extremely unlikely.

Also another problem is that once you reach around 20% haste (around 8.5k), you really dont need much more in my opinion. But to increase the odds of proccing Talisman, you would have to already have a high amount of haste.

Larra^ · 03/18/13, 8:11 PM

Originally Posted by Netukka

Could you link your logs? 60% uptime sounds reasonable with 20% haste, but stacking that much sounds extremely unlikely.

Also another problem is that once you reach around 20% haste (around 8.5k), you really dont need much more in my opinion. But to increase the odds of proccing Talisman, you would have to already have a high amount of haste.

Can't link logs sorry, they're all private. I have around 4-4,5k haste

I looked through some more tries on the same boss (first I just looked at the kill) and it seems the uptime varies between 50-60%, I never saw any try below 50% uptime, only checked 4mins+ wipes.