Elitist Jerks Like Water - The Brewmaster's Resource [5/21/13]

 03/19/13, 5:14 AM #211 Netukka Von Kaiser   Drnetukkamd Human Monk   Ravencrest (EU) Well, then it all depends on how much it stacks. Since without any stacking, 50% uptime balances out to around 750 haste rating (not very impressive), but if 2-3 stacks are regular then its a lot better.
 03/19/13, 10:15 AM #212 Portrero Glass Joe   Reckitt Worgen Hunter   Drak'thul The servers are down; I was bored and wanted some information on this trinket. I'm not good at making math easy so I pretty much brute forced it. I also only had one fight's worth of data (a 9:24 lei shen kill), so this is only a ballpark figure. In 9:24 there was a total uptime of 48% according to WoL. There were 34 total procs, but 19 total instances of the buff being present, so 15 of these procs were within 10s of the previous proc. The longest time in between procs was 61 seconds and the shortest time was less than one second. It is possible that I missed one or more procs in the intermission phases. The shortest buff was 10 seconds (obvi) and the longest was 32 seconds (a 5 stack). 1 stack: 11 times 2 stack: 5 times 3 stack: 1 time 4 stack: never 5 stack: 2 times (once I believe during hero and once during ball lightnings) At this point I calculated the average amount of haste gained per buff (19 times) based on how long each stack took to proc. For example, the one 3-stack buff had 1 stack for 6 seconds, 2 stacks for 7 seconds, and 3 stacks for 10 seconds: (1538*6)+(3076*7)+(4614*10) / 23 seconds = 3343 average haste for the duration of this proc. Here's a picture of the spreadsheet with the numbers, it's pretty basic: http://i.imgur.com/rt8whLE.png I then averaged all 19 buffs, and got a total average of 2297 haste, meaning that on average, each buff, regardless of its duration, was worth 2297 haste. 2297 haste * 48% uptime = 1103 average haste for equipping the trinket. Obvious caveats: one fight (all I had), very little information, but it's the best we have so far. If you have more data or want to point out basic math errors, please do. I wish I had more than 10 minutes of data, especially for these RPPM trinkets, but hey. This was after the RPPM buffs and the data is from a hunter who probably has 4-5k less haste than we do. Last edited by Portrero : 03/19/13 at 11:29 AM.
 03/21/13, 1:18 PM #213 Netukka Von Kaiser   Drnetukkamd Human Monk   Ravencrest (EU) Dashboard - 21-03 15:18 - Netukka failing - World of Logs Did some LFR to test Talisman and to a lesser extent vial. This was done with just below 8k haste (15.00 energy/sec base). Only boss with not full uptime on something was Ji-kun and very short pauses on Megaera. Vial tests not really good since adds die too fast, still got triple stack on tortos. Talisman seems to stack slightly more than I originally assumed, but Im still not very convinced about playing with low haste and expecting the trinket to compensate for that. But since all the other options are very high bursts of agility (and rune) which are mostly good for DPS, I guess it is our best option if you want to use a non pure tank trinket. Lei Shen stamina trinket + something is probably optimal, either Talisman or another mastery/stamina trinket. Vial on Horridon/Tortos maybe.
 03/21/13, 3:14 PM #214 Portrero Glass Joe   Reckitt Worgen Hunter   Drak'thul I probably wouldn't want to drop haste and expect the trinket to be up all the time either, but how did it feel varying your haste by 50-100% relatively frequently? Did it feel useable or did you just end up awkwardly energy capped?
 03/21/13, 4:16 PM #215 Netukka Von Kaiser   Drnetukkamd Human Monk   Ravencrest (EU) I wouldnt judge much of anything from LFR tests since you almost never even go red stagger, so it might seem you have much more Chi to spend than you actually have. Although I have noticed that ever since 5.2 came out, Ive had no problems with Chi generation and usually finish the fights with plenty of shuffle to spare. Mostly because pre 5.2 I used quite a lot of Chi wave, ran low mastery build and only really PBd on heavy stagger. Ill probably test moving away from some haste and get some mastery instead and run Talisman instead of ToES crit trinket (best proc trinket since you can save the generated EB for later when needed). It obviously wont be on all the time, but it is the most consistent one of the new trinkets. Many procs/stacks in a row and you can get some extra uptime on your shuffle, less procs and the bank can be used up.
 03/22/13, 3:30 PM #216 Netukka Von Kaiser   Drnetukkamd Human Monk   Ravencrest (EU) Tested Vial on Horridon HC today. Dashboard - 22-03 15:06 - Hordecore Pwn - World of Logs Took it off before kill. Just too unreliable. Another annoying thing is that during AoE, you want to use SCK more for threat/damage and obviously doing so kills your EB generation, leading to less procs. Also kiting bats on Tortos is about 100x more effective than tanking them. So I would just let the trinket rot in bank and wait if it gets a specific use in next tier.
 03/22/13, 6:47 PM #217 lairpie Don Flamenco   Rollee Pandaren Monk   Shadowmoon I feel like the 4T15 bonus is a pretty huge impact on how much haste feels necessary instead of nice. For right now, I'm sticking pretty low mastery, capping hit, hard expertise, around 9000 haste then going crit. Before 4t15 to fuel a lot of my purifies, I definitely felt like i was handicapping myself on over all damage reduction just for a small gain in burst survival whenever I would try out a higher mastery build. With 4t15 I could definitely drop quite a bit of haste for mastery if needed for a particular fight just to not get blown up, and mostly be sacrificing gratuitously damaging BoKs, not PBs. I know it's normal modes, but even doing stuff like solo tanking Iron Qon 25N I had tons of shuffle time to spare, never dropped below 1/2 hp until the very end, cleared stagger pretty liberally, and got the #3 US/EU damage parse for all class/specs. Its hard to ignore the value of damage as a tank when you're not having any trouble dying and getting top ranked parses for damage across all specs without even moving to get behind the shields (we had some arcing lightning issues) or CJLing the boss while flying (see: arcing lightning issues). I thought I had done pretty well on Consorts, but another monk blew me away by basically solo tanking with another tank that just taunted for a few seconds to clear the fan debuff, but a few of tanks of several classes, even legitimately 2 tanking it (instead of having 1 tank do a ton and 1 tank do almost none, which isn't especially a raid damage gain, though i still want to do that next week for kicks) are in the top 20 over all parses, ahead of a sea of rogues and other damagers. Semi related: For people that have trouble with a low haste build, not in terms of math, but just in terms of over-zealously spending resources mashing buttons, just weave in more and more tiger palms to fill the GCDs. I've found that really helped make it easier to hang around 50 energy and 2 chi, rather than spending every resource as fast as i can and finding myself short on energy to KS on cd, or not being able to guard or EH when I did take a hard hit. It also makes up for some of the damage you lose dropping haste or crit for mastery.
03/23/13, 12:13 PM   #218
Malba
Glass Joe

Zuluhed (EU)
 Originally Posted by lairpie I thought I had done pretty well on Consorts, but another monk blew me away by basically solo tanking with another tank that just taunted for a few seconds to clear the fan debuff, but a few of tanks of several classes, even legitimately 2 tanking it (instead of having 1 tank do a ton and 1 tank do almost none, which isn't especially a raid damage gain, though i still want to do that next week for kicks) are in the top 20 over all parses, ahead of a sea of rogues and other damagers.
Thats probably me; solotanking consorts cause other tank didnt really need loot there and we couldnt see a reason for a second tank. On last kill i realized one fan didnt hit me, so i stealthed the next (n8elf) to clear the debuff. But u dont need that as a monk, we have tons of cds; if u are raiding with a disc this would be even easier. Lookin into parse later, i´ve seen earthelemental got the missing fan. Is the ele capable taunting Consorts?

on Vial: too little procs on normal bosses; like it on trash and Horridon/Tortos adds, cause i can see a direct boost to survivabilty during proc. But as told above more sck leads to less eb and therefore less vialprocs, so even on groups its just "ok".

Am i overseeing an arguement for more haste than you need for blackout kick? Except for Horridon/Tortos hc im playin with under 6k haste. Even with bloodlust on the end of fights i have enough chi to do pb, guard and build abundant shuffle.

03/23/13, 2:22 PM   #219
Pisshands
Von Kaiser

Pandaren Monk

Bleeding Hollow
 Originally Posted by Malba Thats probably me; solotanking consorts cause other tank didnt really need loot there and we couldnt see a reason for a second tank. On last kill i realized one fan didnt hit me, so i stealthed the next (n8elf) to clear the debuff. But u dont need that as a monk, we have tons of cds; if u are raiding with a disc this would be even easier. Lookin into parse later, i´ve seen earthelemental got the missing fan. Is the ele capable taunting Consorts? on Vial: too little procs on normal bosses; like it on trash and Horridon/Tortos adds, cause i can see a direct boost to survivabilty during proc. But as told above more sck leads to less eb and therefore less vialprocs, so even on groups its just "ok". Am i overseeing an arguement for more haste than you need for blackout kick? Except for Horridon/Tortos hc im playin with under 6k haste. Even with bloodlust on the end of fights i have enough chi to do pb, guard and build abundant shuffle.
The best argument I have for still picking up Haste these days is more energy for emergency EH's. Haste was a lot better when we needed to spend Chi on our talented heals, but now that they are free, Haste is becoming increasingly... eh. Keeping up Shuffle is no problem, having enough energy to generate Chi for Guard and PB is important, but it doesn't require 9k Haste, either.

Haste is still good for all the reasons it was back in 5.0: more chi, more energy for EH when in the danger zone, more autos for GotOx, and more autos for EB (yeah, yeah), but Haste definitely *feels* less powerful than it did in t14.

8k appears to be a loose breakpoint, to me, for useful Haste. Haste after that point is not wasted, but the gains are increasingly slight. I am confident you can get away with less than 8k Haste and be just fine, especially if you have 4pc T15. Once I pick up my second piece of T15 (so, months from now - stupid RNG), I will tinker with mastery to see how it feels in conjunction with the post-EB buff.

Furthermore, if you do have 4pc t15 already, I strongly dislike you and will curse your name to the heavens, but would appreciate a heads-up on any nuances.

Last edited by Pisshands : 03/23/13 at 2:29 PM.

 03/23/13, 4:59 PM #220 Portrero Glass Joe   Reckitt Worgen Hunter   Drak'thul I have the 4pc - it's pretty great, the free chi buff lasts 15s and seems to be up a ton although I haven't looked at exact uptimes. I'm still trying to find the best way to use it. I have a stagger WA that shows the icon/color of stagger and then the number next to it. Originally I made it so that when the buff was present, the number would turn red, and I found myself overusing it since when my brain sees red staggers I reach for a PB right away and ended up wasting the proc on really low staggers. I've tried some other colors and now I feel like I'm using the free chi PBs too infrequently. Still trying to find a good balance between purifying the most amount of damage vs. not letting the proc overwrite itself and wasting a free purify, even if it would have been for a relatively low amount of stagger.
03/23/13, 8:58 PM   #221
Pisshands
Von Kaiser

Pandaren Monk

Bleeding Hollow
 Originally Posted by Portrero I have the 4pc - it's pretty great, the free chi buff lasts 15s and seems to be up a ton although I haven't looked at exact uptimes. I'm still trying to find the best way to use it. I have a stagger WA that shows the icon/color of stagger and then the number next to it. Originally I made it so that when the buff was present, the number would turn red, and I found myself overusing it since when my brain sees red staggers I reach for a PB right away and ended up wasting the proc on really low staggers. I've tried some other colors and now I feel like I'm using the free chi PBs too infrequently. Still trying to find a good balance between purifying the most amount of damage vs. not letting the proc overwrite itself and wasting a free purify, even if it would have been for a relatively low amount of stagger.
Long post, tl;dr version:
T15 2pc and 4pc respectively incentivize Mastery gearing and deincentivize Haste gearing. I wouldn't go dumping your Haste away for Mastery as soon you get 2pc, but if you have 4pc, it may be worth considering.

PB usage has a significant effect on the individual need for Haste. If you never PB, ever (which I am sure is viable in some scenarios), you can get away with no Haste. That's essentially what the low-Haste, high-Mastery gearing build attempts to accomplish. You avoid less hits, purify less damage and thus take more damage over a fight (and do less damage). You have more effective health and are capable of living through larger bursts of damage, and ideally provide a smoother, albeit higher, incoming damage curve that proves easier for your healers. Now, if you PB regularly, then you will require Haste to do so and maintain Shuffle uptime. The amount of Haste you need is directly linked to the amount of PB'ing you are going to do. I really like having Haste for emergency EH's. I have lived through many life-and-death situations due to having over 8k Haste and getting back to 40 Energy just in time.

Mastery gearing has solid upsides and downsides, and gives you less direct control over incoming damage when compared to Haste gearing. This is a tradeoff I do not love to make. That said, if we consider how much Mastery 2pc provides as well as how many free PB's we get out of 4pc, this tier of gear provides some compelling reasons to consider Mastery gearing.

To rehash the strength of t15 2pc, let me lay down some starting numbers:
960 Mastery Rating = 1% increase to Stagger value
Raid buffed base Stagger value = 48.125%, 20% baseline + 20% from Shuffle + 5% from base Mastery + 3.125% from Blessing of Might (3000 Mastery)
T15 2pc provides 12% increase to Stagger value after EB, worth 12 * 960 = 11520 Mastery.

This puts Stagger value at zero Mastery rating from gear at 60.125% after an EB if you have T15 2pc.
Going back to page 11, Taser started a good discussion on Mastery's value as an EH-increasing stat.
The numbers for the calculation assumed 500k health, 25% damage reduction from Stance of the Sturdy Ox, 25% damage reduction from armor and 44-50% Stagger.

Let me try that again, now assuming increased Mastery and Stamina values per t15. I have 545k health unbuffed, so we'll go with 600k. I also have 32% damage reduction from armor while using an armor elixir, and we will consider 0, 2000, 4000, 6000, 8000 and 10,000 Mastery on a fully raid buffed player who has t15 2pc active.

 Mastery Stagger Amount Calculation EH EH increase from 2k Mastery % increase over prior 0 60.13% 600,000 / .75 / .68 / .3987 2,950,766 EH N/A 2000 62.21% 600,000 / .75 / .68 / .3779 3,113,180 EH 162,414 N/A 4000 64.29% 600,000 / .75 / .68 / .3571 3,294,513 EH 181,333 11.6% 6000 66.37% 600,000 / .75 / .68 / .3361 3,500,359 EH 205,846 13.5% 8000 68.46% 600,000 / .75 / .68 / .3154 3,730,091 EH 229,732 11.6% 10,000 70.54% 600,000 / .75 / .68 / .2946 3,993,451 EH 263,360 14.64%

What this says to me is that we are capable of obscene EH values with this 2pc, and that the increasing returns of Mastery are strong. This is not news. That said, this 2pc gives a humongous boost of Mastery, which in turn makes the value of the Mastery on our gear substantially stronger (23% increase at 0 Mastery rating and scaling upward quickly). The EH difference at 10k Mastery with and without 2pc is over 1.15M health. EB and 2pc uptime aren't going to overlap much. This certainly doesn't mean you won't ever be hit while EB is up or that you will keep full uptime on the Mastery buff from t15, but it does mean that when you take a hit, chances are high that the buff is going to be active. As such, gearing Mastery takes a considerable leap in value when you have the bonus. Crit and Agi gearing also receive minor bumps due to their value in keeping EB/2pc buff up.

What I think is important to bear in mind is that Mastery is not damage reduction. When you look at post-fight damage taken values, the difference between 48% and 70% Stagger is meaningless if your PB usage, avoidance, etc., are precisely the same. However, in the moment of an attack landing, Mastery can be the difference between living through a big hit and being splattered on the ground. I still think that a balance of stats is the way to go right now, but I am leaning more and more toward Mastery all the time.

Since I don't yet have 2pc t15, I am sitting at 20.00% Haste (~8500 rating) and gearing Crit from there. I am a tick under 39% Crit raid buffed, and it's pretty amazing. I have definitely noticed a bump in PB uptime. This has its issues in fights that feature tank swaps or downtime, which describes almost every fight in ToT. Based purely on encounter design, Crit appears to me to be a bad way to gear right now, but the damage increase is significant, and that makes me happy while I wait for t15 to drop.

One additional note: our weakest area, in my opinion, is sustained spell damage. Regular sources of high spell damage just destroy our tiny health pools. Our best tools for dealing with sustained spell damage are Guard, Expel Harm, Chi Wave and GotOx. Diffuse Magic is also helpful, but more useful for burst. Chi Wave fortunately has no Chi cost, but Expel Harm costs 40 Energy. Mastery and Crit have zero bearing on our ability to tank magic damage, whereas Haste is moderately useful. It gives us more energy to EH, more Chi to be more on the ball with Guard, and more GotOx, hooray. Our only other gearing option for magic damage is to gear for Stamina, which is unequivocally awful for every other aspect of our tanking arsenal. So that's one solid mark in the win column for Haste gearing.

Last edited by Pisshands : 03/23/13 at 9:05 PM.

03/24/13, 9:59 AM   #222
Crevan
Don Flamenco

Gnome Rogue

Darksorrow (EU)
 Originally Posted by Pisshands T15 2pc provides 12% increase to Stagger value after EB, worth 12 * 960 = 11520 Mastery.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't someone establish a while ago that the 2p bonus is multiplicative, not additive? That is, we get stagger * 1.12, not stagger + 12 as a result.

03/24/13, 5:09 PM   #223
Pisshands
Von Kaiser

Pandaren Monk

Bleeding Hollow
 Originally Posted by Crevan Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't someone establish a while ago that the 2p bonus is multiplicative, not additive? That is, we get stagger * 1.12, not stagger + 12 as a result.
I said it may be possible a few months ago, but I don't believe anyone has established that at all. It is phrased differently from Shuffle and FB, so it may be, but FB and Shuffle aren't even phrased the same. Blizzard are not known for their linguistic consistency. If it is multiplicative instead of additive, it will still scale more effectively with high values of Mastery, but will obviously provide substantially less total benefit.

Here's something that is certain: Xuen's stupid taunt is finally useful on a fight! On Dark Animus, Xuen can and will tank one or two Anima Golems down with little to no threat or survivability problems (so long as his is not buffed by another nearby golem). I pick up two golems on the pull, set Xuen on one and drag the other away. The ranged kill his, he takes mine and I go pick up a Massive Anima Golem.

This has slipped my mind to mention until just now.

Last edited by Pisshands : 03/24/13 at 5:29 PM.

 03/25/13, 2:02 AM #224 Tsuki Ko Glass Joe   Litchi Human Monk   Alleria 2pc is multiplicative, not additive, and I also hadn't realized that until now. Quick test without Shuffle and at 6.81% mastery: No Staggering: [Amberscale Basilisk's] melee swing hits [Litchi] for 4965 Physical.(1818 Absorbed) 6783 - 26.81% ~= 4965 With Staggering: [Amberscale Basilisk's] melee swing hits [Litchi] for 5050 Physical.(2166 Absorbed) 7216 - (26.81% * 1.12) ~= 5050 Last edited by Tsuki Ko : 03/25/13 at 2:09 AM.