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Old 12/30/12, 4:00 PM   #16
Pisshands
Von Kaiser
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
Bleeding Hollow
Originally Posted by Netukka View Post
Does anyone have experience running two monk tanks in 10mans and more specifically, can you do some special tactics with Statue shields? Since login problems messed our raid up we did 10man and this part from empress intrigued me...

Expression Editor - 30-12 16:46 - Netukka failing - World of Logs

You can see that I put over million damage absorb shields on 7 out of 8 non tanks in the raid. Obviously all bosses cant have phases like empress adds where you get crazy vengeance and do aoe dps, but with dual brewmasters you could regularly shield the whole raid with Guards. Maybe skip like amber shaper explosions with having them up or something?

Also Xuen dying because it taunts stuff is really fucking stupid. I wish blizz just be removed it or a glyph added to remove it.
I think the interaction of two Black Ox Statues is worth exploring. Will they overwrite or stack with the other's Guard? Will they Guard the other Brewmaster? Does that overwrite or stack with the Brewmaster's Guard? I don't know the answer to any of these questions, but it's definitely worth testing.

Not to deviate too far from the topic of the thread, but yes, the notion that Xuen taunts for Brewmasters makes zero sense. If you hate that Xuen taunts (you should), go to the official forums and make noise. I have, and enough noise about this bad idea will bring the horrible design to their attention and result in a rework.
To be clear, Xuen is not a problem in 95% of raiding, I just do not understand how the taunt made its way through the iterative design process:
"We should add more utility to Xuen than just being a damage cooldown." "How about a taunt?" "I'm sure that Windwalkers and Fistweavers would appreciate that." "No, let's give it to Brewmasters. They're tanks, so let's give them a tank pet." "Perfect."
Tanks need to be pummeled for Vengeance. The very notion that a tank class would want a pet to taunt off of them is reflective of a design philosophy older than Vengeance. If they wanted Xuen to provide utility to Brewmasters, he should provide a shield or self-healing to the Monk while he is out. That said, I don't feel he needs any utility for Brewmasters whatsoever.

Taunt should be completely removed from baseline Xuen and a new minor glyph should be added:
Glyph of the Angry Feline - Xuen the White Tiger will now taunt targets affected by Crackling Tiger Lightning.

Edited to posit an idea and a lesson:
If Xuen gave the Brewmaster Vengeance equal to the damage he takes and had a damage reduction mechanic of some sort, his taunt would actually be mighty useful.
Let's say Xuen gets redesigned to transfer Vengeance, is capable of taunting bosses (active taunt, controlled by the Monk), benefits from the Monk's Shuffle, Staggers damage onto the Monk and is affected by the Monk's self-heals. Drop the duration from 45 seconds to 15 (12, maybe) and you have an amazing, unique tanking cooldown that fits what I imagine they were trying to approximate with the addition of the passive Xuen taunt.
Now, I'm not a huge fan of the idea, despite having come up with it. It's a bit clunky and feels fertile for bugs and cheesily exploiting mechanics, but it's an example of how taking an absolutely terrible basic idea and developing it further can make something extremely useful. Negativity is gratifying, but it isn't usually a path to progress.

Last edited by Pisshands : 12/30/12 at 5:08 PM.

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Old 12/30/12, 5:09 PM   #17
Neara
Glass Joe
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Die Ewige Wacht (EU)
On the topic of Xuen .. who else is annoyed that he prefers cleavetargets instead of maintargets. so damn frustrating on windlord heroic dmg phase and after the first keg smash he switches to an add >.> ... not to mention that with high vengeance his dmg is so high that keg smash isn't enough to keep him from pulling aggro. Tonight he kept pulling subetai off me while quiang was still up, even resulted in a wipe because subetai than picked me as an rain of arrows target after pillaging away from me.

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Old 12/31/12, 12:59 AM   #18
Bemxuu
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Troll Druid
 
Ясеневый лес (EU)
Originally Posted by Pisshands View Post
This was the only way we got our first Heroic Gara'jal kill. I had a really long Shuffle built up, so I used Chi Wave on cooldown and PB'ed every Medium Stagger during the 20% enrage. Monk damage taken models are incredible in situations in which we can stack up a long Shuffle with impunity and allow ourselves to be more liberal with Chi for self-healing and PB. Not that you would stop Blackout Kicking entirely - you will still want the dps, but having the room to purify Staggers a hit sooner on average without any fear of losing Shuffle makes an enrage phase a lot easier for healers.
Out first H Gara'jal was exactly the opposite: we went there w/ 10ppl raid as opposed to our regular 25's. We were 3healing (2 disc+hpally), so it was only the enrage timer we were struggling with. so I was dpsing in Tiger Stance and switching to Ox for last 10 seconds before banishment. We killed him a split second after he hit enrage (i think... DBM timer stated that we were supposed to be dead by that moment). It really depends on your strategy and on whether you need more survivability or more damage. Another instance would be one of our Ta'yak wipes. We screwed up with leaving at 11%, so we had to run the whole thing once again. When the smoke cleared, we had 4 dps and 3 healers alive, as well as 2 tanks. It made perfect sense to ignore survivability and push for damage.

Originally Posted by Netukka View Post
Dual brewmasters you could regularly shield the whole raid with Guards. Maybe skip like amber shaper explosions with having them up or something?

Also Xuen dying because it taunts stuff is really fucking stupid. I wish blizz just be removed it or a glyph added to remove it.
I doubt it will ever be a game-breaking tactic. You cannot control who's getting the shield, so entirely ignoring fights' mechanic through Statue abuse is, to say the least, unlikely. Rallying Cry/Aura Mastery/HotW heals, on the other hand, are done on demand and regardless of whether you're smashing smth and get smashed back. Of course, there are fights that include ALL the gimmicks that benefit Statue:
1. Damage increase
2. High uptime on boss
3. Constant AoE to eat through Guard.
Heroic Will would be the first instance that comes to mind.

Sometimes Xuen's taunt is a blessing whenever there is an opportunity to get one or more of those adds off me by using him with proper timing, I do it. Elegon, Meljarak, Shek'zeer.. Call me an old-school (or old fart, if you like it more), but I still believe that tanks' primary tasks are keeping everyone else from being attacked and surviving themselves. Therefore, I champion trading some damage for some survival in most cases (2 Gara's would be exceptions - Gara'jal and Garalon).
I've never seen him taunting the boss though o_O

Also, Pisshands, how come you didn't include our Taunt in mobility section? It's 50% speed increase does wonders. There are many occasions when you would like something to move faster. On example of MSV:
1. Guards. Faster cat swaps ftw!
2. Feng Heroic. Moving him away from his shield is nice. Do not taunt him while he's running to pick another weapon, though - you don't want him to move faster in this case.
3. Gara'jal. Pretty much no use. May be initial pull to cut on running-in time for melee.
4. Kings. Relocating bosses after Flanking Orders, moving the Crazed guy out of sphere leftovers and flanks and so on.
5. Elegon. Rapidly moving adds away from the buff zone.
6. Will. I'd say, there is no use for speed part of our taunt. Unless you want to troll another tank by speeding up his Courage, of course.

Last edited by Bemxuu : 12/31/12 at 11:48 AM.

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Old 12/31/12, 1:21 PM   #19
Netukka
Von Kaiser
 
Human Monk
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Bemxuu View Post
I doubt it will ever be a game-breaking tactic. You cannot control who's getting the shield, so entirely ignoring fights' mechanic through Statue abuse is, to say the least, unlikely. Rallying Cry/Aura Mastery/HotW heals, on the other hand, are done on demand and regardless of whether you're smashing smth and get smashed back. Of course, there are fights that include ALL the gimmicks that benefit Statue:
1. Damage increase
2. High uptime on boss
3. Constant AoE to eat through Guard.
Heroic Will would be the first instance that comes to mind.
Thats why I said double BM, not just one. As long as there isnt constant AoE damage going on (like H will), you can shield the whole raid. Think Blade Lord, there isnt much aoe damage going on before Unseen Strike so you could get statue shield on everyone and just eat it without cooldowns. Or on Amber Shaper in p2, if most slimes are dead in later p2 you could shield the raid and eat amber explosion (for whatever reason). Just examples what you could do that might allow some weirdness in t15.

Preventing constant AoE damage like H will is nice, but wasnt really what I was going for.

Problem with Xuen isnt that taunting mobs is necessarily "bad" (unless we are talking spirit kings, thats just stupid), its that more often than not it dies because it taunts adds. Also since it acts as a guardian rather than pet healers have a hard time getting around to heal it.

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Old 12/31/12, 2:19 PM   #20
Pisshands
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Pandaren Monk
 
Bleeding Hollow
Originally Posted by Bemxuu View Post
Also, Pisshands, how come you didn't include our Taunt in mobility section? It's 50% speed increase does wonders. There are many occasions when you would like something to move faster.
It was in the wordy, unreadable first draft, and presently on the to-add list.

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Old 12/31/12, 3:57 PM   #21
Bemxuu
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Troll Druid
 
Ясеневый лес (EU)
Originally Posted by Netukka View Post
Thats why I said double BM, not just one. As long as there isnt constant AoE damage going on (like H will), you can shield the whole raid. Think Blade Lord, there isnt much aoe damage going on before Unseen Strike so you could get statue shield on everyone and just eat it without cooldowns. Or on Amber Shaper in p2, if most slimes are dead in later p2 you could shield the raid and eat amber explosion (for whatever reason). Just examples what you could do that might allow some weirdness in t15.

Preventing constant AoE damage like H will is nice, but wasn't really what I was going for.

Problem with Xuen isnt that taunting mobs is necessarily "bad" (unless we are talking spirit kings, thats just stupid), its that more often than not it dies because it taunts adds. Also since it acts as a guardian rather than pet healers have a hard time getting around to heal it.
If I'm lucky with my guess that each BM would be stacking stuff independently, that means there might be someone who will not be covered by shields and, therefore, will likely die to that Big Boom. Also, it is very rare for multiple tanks to have high vengeance simultaneously. Without Vengeance Guard will be absorbing little to nothing. I'm not saying it will be completely useless... It just requires quite a rare coincidence of fight gimmicks like high vengeance+high damage opportunities immediately followed by raid-wide AoE. And that still leaves a chance that someone particularly squishy will not be covered by any shields. It's randomness of such tactic that makes it highly unreliable => undesirable.

Yeah, t h a t part of Xuen is smth I don't like as well. Fella seems to last long enough, though...

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Old 01/03/13, 5:47 PM   #22
Kraun
Glass Joe
 
Troll Shaman
 
Ghostlands
Great guide!

Thanks for putting this guide together it is quite helpful.

Though I would also add Glyph of enduring healing sphere as a great option when one of the other glyphs isn't needed. It works with GotOx procs. For fights with tank swapping it is a great way to save unneeded GotOx procs that would otherwise go to waste.

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Old 01/03/13, 11:29 PM   #23
Pisshands
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Pandaren Monk
 
Bleeding Hollow
Originally Posted by Kraun View Post
Thanks for putting this guide together it is quite helpful.

Though I would also add Glyph of enduring healing sphere as a great option when one of the other glyphs isn't needed. It works with GotOx procs. For fights with tank swapping it is a great way to save unneeded GotOx procs that would otherwise go to waste.
An interesting note. I have precast Healing Spheres on a few hard fights. I suppose one always should, mathematically speaking. It's free healing on demand.
I have not had many GotOx procs go unused for 2 minutes, but we do not have many excellent glyph options, either, so I suppose it could have some value in certain situations.

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Old 01/04/13, 2:33 AM   #24
Yörgle
Piston Honda
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
Elune (EU)
Very nice guide, thanks for that Pisshands (... dafuq is that nick ^^).

I think it would be nice to add Sunnier's weak auras, or at least the one for Stagger which is GREAT. Brewmaster Weak Auras - Sunnier's Art of War I don't how Tao is working now but on the beta it was a bit laggy, in terms of refreshing the value / color while the aura is really well made and easy to read.

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Old 01/04/13, 11:46 AM   #25
Kraun
Glass Joe
 
Troll Shaman
 
Ghostlands
Originally Posted by Pisshands View Post
An interesting note. I have precast Healing Spheres on a few hard fights. I suppose one always should, mathematically speaking. It's free healing on demand.
I have not had many GotOx procs go unused for 2 minutes, but we do not have many excellent glyph options, either, so I suppose it could have some value in certain situations.
Healing spheres last 2 min. but GotOx spheres only last 20 seconds as I recall. I'll have to go in and see if they changed this, but I believe this is how it still is. Either way since there are few good choices for us on glyphs I think EHS is a good one. Thanks again and keep up the good work!

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Old 01/04/13, 1:53 PM   #26
Pisshands
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Pandaren Monk
 
Bleeding Hollow
Originally Posted by Kraun View Post
Healing spheres last 2 min. but GotOx spheres only last 20 seconds as I recall. I'll have to go in and see if they changed this, but I believe this is how it still is. Either way since there are few good choices for us on glyphs I think EHS is a good one. Thanks again and keep up the good work!
I tested it out myself, and you are right. GotOx last only 20 sec by default and the glyph takes it to 3:20. Not a bad choice for fights with tanks swaps, adding it to the list.

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Old 01/04/13, 4:43 PM   #27
Larra^
Glass Joe
 
Human Druid
 
Neptulon (EU)
Elusive Brew uptime is a function of crit chance, hit, expertise and haste
Hit & Expertise does not matter for Elusive Brew, only haste and crit.

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Old 01/04/13, 6:46 PM   #28
Moozhe
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Undead Monk
 
Area 52
On the subject of Xuen, he has saved my life on Heroic Shek'zeer adds and he survives surprisingly well.

Based on my logs, I think he inherits our dodge and parry. I've had him offtank an add for over 30 seconds before dying. I think with the Chi Wave buff in 5.2 we will be able to keep him up much better.

I think perhaps they should design him similar to the way Glyph of Leer of the Ox works (Glyph of Leer of the Tiger?) so that we can situationally choose who (and if) he should taunt.

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Old 01/04/13, 11:32 PM   #29
Pisshands
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Pandaren Monk
 
Bleeding Hollow
Originally Posted by Larra^ View Post
Hit & Expertise does not matter for Elusive Brew, only haste and crit.
Yep. I thought I had fixed that a week ago.

Originally Posted by Moozhe View Post
On the subject of Xuen, he has saved my life on Heroic Shek'zeer adds and he survives surprisingly well.

Based on my logs, I think he inherits our dodge and parry. I've had him offtank an add for over 30 seconds before dying. I think with the Chi Wave buff in 5.2 we will be able to keep him up much better.

I think perhaps they should design him similar to the way Glyph of Leer of the Ox works (Glyph of Leer of the Tiger?) so that we can situationally choose who (and if) he should taunt.
I'll do some digging through my logs to see on the dodge and parry inheritance. It may be. Chi Wave will definitely help keep him up when he taunts. My biggest issue with him taunting is the absence of a Vengeance transfer.
As for actively choosing who and when he taunts, I decidedly agree.

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Old 01/06/13, 8:32 AM   #30
sabiczech
Glass Joe
 
Pandaren Monk
 
<PTP>
Drak'thul (EU)
Guys is there a way how to track guards casted by statue? I would like to show my guild how the statue is valuable, but healing export from my recount is counting only EH, Chi Wave etc.

BTW great guide Pisshands!!!

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