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Old 01/28/13, 3:35 PM   #106
 promdates
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Paladin
 
Turalyon
Some numbers using your spreadsheet:

Ascension => Power Strikes at:

Keg Smash/Expel Harm at 8/15 cd
7.5% hit/expertise
10007 haste rating

7.5% hit 15% expertise
9105 haste rating

Keg Smash/Expel harm at 8.25/25 CD
7.5% hit/expertise
9816 haste rating

7.5% hit 15% expertise
9144 haste rating

Anything over those ratings, according to your spreadsheet makes Ascension better than Power Strikes for generating the most chi per min.


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Old 01/29/13, 7:38 PM   #107
 promdates
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Paladin
 
Turalyon
Using the math from Pisshands (serious, this is a great name!) in the previous page or two, I came up with this google document.

The math should match the math on the previous two pages as far as CPM. If anything, the numbers in the google.doc don't round up to the nearest hundredth of a decimal. Adjust the green boxes, and it shows chi per minute with hit/exp/haste choice options.

Energy/Minute


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Old 01/30/13, 8:08 AM   #108
Taser
Von Kaiser
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Lordaeron (EU)
At least it proofs that both of our spreadsheets are generating the same results.

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Old 02/03/13, 5:53 AM   #109
Foxx33
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Eonar
Under the professions section, I noticed a mistake and it could completely change some things and opinions on what professions to take.

Leatherworking gives you 330 Agility - almost FREE wrist enchant(Normally 3 Sha Crystals); as well as, the leg enchants. I believe it should be up there with Engineering. As for those sustained fights where there aren't any tank swaps, it's the best in terms of DPS under Blacksmithing.

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Old 02/03/13, 10:34 AM   #110
Crevan
Don Flamenco
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Greater Agility on bracers gives 180 of the stat. This means that Fur Lining is 320 points ahead, like other professions.


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Old 02/04/13, 6:24 AM   #111
Flopi
Von Kaiser
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Outland (EU)
Regarding professions, I picked JC and LW because at the start of the expansion I didn't know much about Monk and just blindly followed someone's advice. It's not that bad though because I can switch to more stamina very easily. Swap trinkets, leg/bracer enchant and JC gems on the fly.

Something I didn't find on main post: I was curious if Black Ox Statue needs to be in my range for the Guards it throws out. Tested it yesterday and it seems that the answer is No. At least my DK tank told me he got the Guard shield even though I was surely out of the 40yd range. I wonder what the max range is for my statue to cast out shields within the 40yd as stated on the tooltip.

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Old 02/04/13, 10:26 AM   #112
jehosephat
Glass Joe
 
Undead Monk
 
Stormreaver
Originally Posted by Flopi View Post
Regarding professions, I picked JC and LW because at the start of the expansion I didn't know much about Monk and just blindly followed someone's advice. It's not that bad though because I can switch to more stamina very easily. Swap trinkets, leg/bracer enchant and JC gems on the fly.

Something I didn't find on main post: I was curious if Black Ox Statue needs to be in my range for the Guards it throws out. Tested it yesterday and it seems that the answer is No. At least my DK tank told me he got the Guard shield even though I was surely out of the 40yd range. I wonder what the max range is for my statue to cast out shields within the 40yd as stated on the tooltip.

The tooltip for the statue states that it, not you, casts the shield. So, as long as they are within 40 yards of the statue it will cast, regardless of how far away you are from them.

Now, I have no idea how far away from the statue you can get before it stops registering your damage, but I doubt there are any boss fights where that will be an issue.

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Old 02/04/13, 3:05 PM   #113
Netukka
Von Kaiser
 
Human Monk
 
Ravencrest (EU)
After finally finishing the tier main tanking all HC bosses in 25man I thought I'd post some thoughts about BM spec in general. In no particular order as things come to mind.

-Shuffle as a mechanic can feel extremely punishing if you for some reason can not hit your target due to immunity or range issues. Example on H sha. P2 begins, boss might start phase with thrash buff ready. But since it takes 10-15 seconds for the boss to actually reach you, youll drop shuffle more than likely due to platform shenanigans and unless you use major cooldowns just to survive the first hit, youll get one shot, simply because you couldnt get shuffle up. At this point it is pretty much assumed to have 100% uptime and blizzard balances around having that. I wish there was some option to generate shuffle outside of using BoK, even if it was tied to a cooldown. Also dont really like the mechanic of balancing a tank around a buff you have a 100% of uptime on when you take damage, doesnt really sound like "active mitigation" to me.
-Breath of Fire feels really punishing to use. Other tanks dont sacrifice nearly as much if they want to do extra aoe damage while BM, if you wanna go full aoe, sacrifices everything apart from EH self heals if you want to spam BoF. Not very viable. Same note on a lesser scale could be said about SCK. Not being able to PB or interrupt or stun adds during the channel makes you feel scared about using the skill. Can still cancel the skill with /stopcasting, but feels kinda wasted.
-Avert harm is really underwhelming. Either you use it to reduce the other tanks damage (also known as safeguard) or you pop it in melee to reduce some aoe damage with Zen Meditation so you wont kill yourself. Long cooldown, short duration. I guess the devs didnt want to give BM too good of a raid cooldown with Statue shields.
-Clash feels a bit awkward as a spell. I wish that even if the mob was immune to the "charge" effect, you would still go halfway yourself instead of just getting Immune message and putting the skill on cooldown. Rolling suffers slightly from the same problem, since not being able to stop midway can lead you to going too far.
-I think the viability of Healing Spheres as a burst heal on yourself and other members of the raid could be looked in to in some degree. Obviously youll sacrifice chi generation, but with half a second gcd, you can get insane burst heal on a 40y range assuming vengeance.
-Statue and the shields it give are really, REALLY good. Especially in 10man. With any sort of aoe or damage increase mechanic, the amount of shields you start putting out gets to a ridiculous level. Same thing with the scaling with vengeance, 200k vengeance will be very standard in 5.2 probably which means 500k+ shields always.
-Zen meditation is pretty ridiculous for skipping mechanics. 10mil phys dmg hits are survivable, as are 50mil magic damage hits with Diffuse Magic. I guess blizzard just adds in more "you die" mechanics.
-Self/Off heals with lvl 30 talents are going to be crazy if the current PTR numbers go through. Free, 300k insta heals with chi wave? Talk about panic buttons.
-I really wish they made something else instead of Chi Torpedo as the lvl 90 talent. Its not an option for BM or WW and while MW can use it, I dont really think tying damage/heal to your innate mobility skill is good. Also Xuen really needs to stop taunting stuff I dont want it to taunt. A minor glyph would really solve the issue.

Switching from a DK in 4.3 (which changed the least in MoP) really lets you see the multiple options a monk has on tanking though. Instead of just self healing (or making blood shield cushions), you can also manage EB, Guard and shuffle (although its not really managing at this point) while still having two (three with spheres) self heal options.

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Old 02/04/13, 4:47 PM   #114
Pisshands
Von Kaiser
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
Bleeding Hollow
I have said it elsewhere, but the Xuen taunt situation is very simple: It's detrimental to the one spec he taunts, and would be exceptional for the other two specs. Xuen's taunting needs to be a minor glyph available to all specs.

Avert Harm is a very good raid damage reduction skill with a really limiting range. It needs a baseline or glyphed radius increase, but it's still useful in a lot of situations.

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Old 02/04/13, 6:16 PM   #115
Xyogan
Glass Joe
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Uldum
With Ascension, is it really viable to stack haste to 9000 or so? Due to the diminishing returns on energy per second, it seems that after a certain e/s value, stacking additional haste is a waste of stats.

Another question I'm curious about is the real value of expertise. I understand that 1 point of expertise rating will always give the same amount, but doesn't stacking expertise go down in value as the likelihood of getting parried becomes smaller? There should be a point where we can stop stacking it and use that rating for something else.

As I'm not particularly useful in the math that goes into theorycrafting, I won't attempt that, and I realize that anecdotes are not data, but there is something to be said for personal experience.

I run with ~4400 haste rating, which gives ~14.1 e/s. If I stack as much as I can get, regemming and what not, my energy regen only gets to ~14.6. In a 5 minute fight, that amounts to 150 energy, if my crappy math is right. And that costs about an extra 4000 haste rating. If someone can come and correct my (most likely) grossly inaccurate numbers, please do, as I only want to contribute in the most meaningful way I can.

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Old 02/05/13, 10:26 AM   #116
Schmoopy
Von Kaiser
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Xyogan View Post
Another question I'm curious about is the real value of expertise. I understand that 1 point of expertise rating will always give the same amount, but doesn't stacking expertise go down in value as the likelihood of getting parried becomes smaller? There should be a point where we can stop stacking it and use that rating for something else.
The real value of expertise does not change until you cap it. As long as you are not going beyond cap, reducing the chance to be dodged by 1% is the same when going from 7% to 6% as 3% to 2%. In either case you have 1% less chance to be dodged.

I believe you are confusing the stats relative value with its real value. As with any other stat, the relative value of expertise to another stat does decrease the more expertise you get. In the example of expertise, crit or haste become more valuable as you reduce your chance to be parried. Similarily, if you increase your attack speed via haste then expertise becomes more valuable so those attacks do not miss.

Normally the point you stop stacking it is either at dodge or parry cap. Though it is possible that you will reach a threshold before those caps where another stat surpasses it. For a dps I would normally suggest you use simcraft to find these break points. As a tank it is a little less clear but there are a few spreadsheets out there to help evaulate stat weights.

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Old 02/05/13, 11:24 AM   #117
Ner
Glass Joe
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Alexstrasza
Originally Posted by Netukka View Post
-Shuffle as a mechanic can feel extremely punishing if you for some reason can not hit your target due to immunity or range issues. Example on H sha. P2 begins, boss might start phase with thrash buff ready. But since it takes 10-15 seconds for the boss to actually reach you, youll drop shuffle more than likely due to platform shenanigans and unless you use major cooldowns just to survive the first hit, youll get one shot, simply because you couldnt get shuffle up. At this point it is pretty much assumed to have 100% uptime and blizzard balances around having that. I wish there was some option to generate shuffle outside of using BoK, even if it was tied to a cooldown.
You can talent into RJW and have Shuffle on-demand every 30s because it grants Shuffle on cast. It's counter-intuitive to take that talent on a fight with no adds, but it's still nice to be able to pick up a boss again after an immunity phase with Shuffle already up.

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Old 02/05/13, 1:10 PM   #118
Schmoopy
Von Kaiser
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by Ner View Post
You can talent into RJW and have Shuffle on-demand every 30s because it grants Shuffle on cast. It's counter-intuitive to take that talent on a fight with no adds, but it's still nice to be able to pick up a boss again after an immunity phase with Shuffle already up.
If you have the two chi for RJW couldn't you just BoK? Related question does BoK cause shuffle if the damage misses (dodge, parry, etc)? I had always assumed it was like Rogue's Envenom where you get the Evenom buff regardless if the attack connects or not.

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Old 02/05/13, 2:16 PM   #119
Kraun
Glass Joe
 
Troll Shaman
 
Ghostlands
Yeah chi pooling for RJW right before a boss drops immunity does feel a bit clunky... They should add something that if you taunt a mob and gain aggro from that taunt it applies shuffle. This would at least fix that initial hit problem. They could even do a this can not occur more then once every 30 seconds or something.

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Old 02/05/13, 4:40 PM   #120
Pisshands
Von Kaiser
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
Bleeding Hollow
Originally Posted by Schmoopy View Post
If you have the two chi for RJW couldn't you just BoK? Related question does BoK cause shuffle if the damage misses (dodge, parry, etc)? I had always assumed it was like Rogue's Envenom where you get the Evenom buff regardless if the attack connects or not.
I tested this back in beta and was surprised to find that indeed, you do receive Shuffle regardless of whether BoK connects. If the target goes immune, you may not get Shuffle - I haven't tested.

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