Like Water - The Brewmaster's Resource [6/15/13] - Page 4

Pisshands · 01/11/13, 3:11 AM

Originally Posted by Noobiisa

With Chi healing spells becoming free in terms of Chi costs, keeping up shuffle or purifing more will be fairly trivial. As Pisshands demonstrated above how powerful EB is above and that is at a modest 50% avoidance, this should be easy to get to 55% even in some decent T15 gear, now throw in the T14 2 set bonus there and EB even looks more lucrative and upon reaching 90% avoidance, the DR will start to be significant.

The synergy between 2 piece T14 and T15 plays quite well off each other (hopefully you can have both buffs up), how long will T14 2set bonus stay viable?

We will have to see, but I imagine it will probably be a "Rogues in DS" situation, in which we are better off running 2pc and 2pc forever for damage reduction, and using 4pc t15 will be for dps. We'll see, but I would seriously expect that, even with how greatly diminished the extra 5% dodge becomes, it is still an increase in damage reduction to 10% chance to free PB. 5% dodge is still a lot of avoidance.
What we can all agree upon even without supporting math is that being able to Purify for free and turn that PB Chi into more Blackout Kicks is going to be a significant damage increase (should you use it that way). Add in the increased stats on t15 compared to t14 and it's even more of a damage increase.

We shall see. I would like to compare how much damage reduction t15 4pc actually provides next to t14 2pc. I am going to need a math genius to model optimal PB usage for me, though. Someone who can do better than my basic algebra and staged fight sequences.

Quickly, light the Venyasure signal.

Taser · 01/11/13, 6:40 AM

@pisshands
You are calculating the 2pc as being a simple +12%, ie 50%+12%=62%. But it might be possible that it will be 50*1.12=56%. That needs to be checked.

50-55% aboidance without EB? How are you doing that? Lets say 3% miss + 15% Dodge + 10% parry + 20% shuffle = 48% total. But you need to deduct 4.5% from Miss/Dodge/parry = 13.5 in total for fighting a Boss, as you lose 1.5% per Level difference.

Pisshands · 01/11/13, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by Taser

@pisshands
You are calculating the 2pc as being a simple +12%, ie 50%+12%=62%. But it might be possible that it will be 50*1.12=56%. That needs to be checked.

50-55% aboidance without EB? How are you doing that? Lets say 3% miss + 15% Dodge + 10% parry + 20% shuffle = 48% total. But you need to deduct 4.5% from Miss/Dodge/parry = 13.5 in total for fighting a Boss, as you lose 1.5% per Level difference.

Good call on the avoidance DR, but no chance on the Stagger value increase being multiplicative. Every single other Stagger value increase is additive.

Edit:
I was a bit groggy from waking up when I first read this, but no, you only lose .6% of each avoidance stat against raid bosses, giving a total of 1.8% avoidance lost. I am not sure where you came up with 4.5% for each avoidance.

Nevertheless, reducing base avoidance simply increases the relative damage reduction value of Elusive Brew. I would think that's obvious.

Netukka · 01/11/13, 2:46 PM

They changed the mechanics how enemies ignore dodge/parry/miss in MoP. It used to be .6% per level, now it is 1.5% per level. As bosses are considered level 93, they ignore 4.5% dodge/parry/miss always, 13.5% together.

Edit: Clarified. Base chance for boss to miss an attack at you is 0.5% and 4.5% dodge/parry is ignored always.

Taser · 01/12/13, 1:17 PM

Can't post a link as the class balance thread is gone. But it was posted by GC himself. Maybe there is some quote at mmochampion or wowhead...

Loriel · 01/12/13, 4:30 PM

Originally Posted by Pisshands

Troll – Special Mention, Best Damage Race against Beasts
If Berserking provided 20% haste, it would be alright. It provides 20% attack speed instead, meaning no extra energy regen, only a very minor increase to GotOx chance over the course of a fight.

Is this still the case? The ingame character sheet indicates that my energy regen goes up when I use Berserking, and it does say melee haste on the tooltip.

Pisshands · 01/13/13, 5:32 PM

Originally Posted by Loriel

Is this still the case? The ingame character sheet indicates that my energy regen goes up when I use Berserking, and it does say melee haste on the tooltip.

Checked on my old Troll Rogue. It has most definitely been changed to be Haste, and it does affect energy regen.

qwas · 01/15/13, 2:33 AM

Originally Posted by Taser

@pisshands
You are calculating the 2pc as being a simple +12%, ie 50%+12%=62%. But it might be possible that it will be 50*1.12=56%. That needs to be checked.

50-55% aboidance without EB? How are you doing that? Lets say 3% miss + 15% Dodge + 10% parry + 20% shuffle = 48% total. But you need to deduct 4.5% from Miss/Dodge/parry = 13.5 in total for fighting a Boss, as you lose 1.5% per Level difference.

you shouldn't substract 4.5% for hit (3%-4,5% ~ still 0%)

in essence you should calculate avoidance as dodge+parry-9 (or 0.5+dodge+parry-9 for night elves)

Pisshands · 01/15/13, 3:37 AM

Originally Posted by qwas

you shouldn't substract 4.5% for hit (3%-4,5% ~ still 0%)

in essence you should calculate avoidance as dodge+parry-9 (or 0.5+dodge+parry-9 for night elves)

Baseline chance to be missed is 5%, not 3%, so you are subtracting from the wrong number.

I can accept that lost dodge, parry and miss are 1.5% per level, but I want to see a blue post or clear evidence to prove it. Until then, I will withhold judgment. Either way, the difference in avoidance doesn't affect playstyle or gearing, only models for relative stat values.

Taser · 01/15/13, 11:08 AM

Secondly, players have been curious about the combat table chances against players of boss mobs. What is described in that blog post is indeed accurate for a boss attacking a player. That does mean that a player has a base 3% chance to be missed, 3% chance to dodge (if they know Dodge), 3% chance to parry (if they know Parry), and 3% chance to block (if they know Block). That chance is indeed reduced by 1.5% per level difference, so a 92+ will never miss a 90. So to use a simple example, a monk with no parry on gear or other buffs has a 3% base parry chance, plus 5% from Swift Reflexes, for a total character sheet parry chance of 8%. A level 93 boss attacking that Monk will get parried 3.5% of the time. Hope that clears things up.

MMO-Champion - Flippable Table, MoP Music Update, Beta Class Balance Analysis, Blue Posts

Vapes · 01/16/13, 4:02 PM

Is there a reliable BiS trinket list for Brewmaster?

lairpie · 01/16/13, 5:15 PM

Originally Posted by Vapes

Is there a reliable BiS trinket list for Brewmaster?

No, it would vary Dramatically between fights, raid comps, player skill, your other gear, and amount you value your personal damage. To get a real list you'd basically have to make one for each different fight, sometimes noting differences between 10 and 25, or how abundant healing is. Generally, you're probably best off getting a [Bottle of Infinite Stars] and never taking it off other than Lei'Shi, and using a stamina trinket or [Relic of Xuen] based on the fight. If you asked everyone, you'd find a large degree of variation based on different math that is still actually just based on their (or more likely someone else's) opinions on the numbers that went into the math. There's no "this one does more damage than the other one" type ranking like you can get most times for damage trinkets.

If you're looking for just raw damage reduction (and coincidentally damage done), [Bottle of Infinite Stars] (reforged to haste) and [Relic of Xuen] are great. If you want more help surviving through burst damage use stamina trinkets, or don't reforge the bottle to haste. If you're looking to mitigate the spikiness of the damage you take, but aren't actually too worried about dying (like Gara'jal), you might even use Bottle and [Vial of Dragon's Blood] but the latter is pretty much terrible. If you're trying to do content while frankly undergeared, mastery is comparatively better. If lots of the damage (that you can't Zen Med/Diffuse Magic through) is magic, stamina shoots up in value. If you're tanking only part of the time like many fights Agi shoots up in value (because of increased EB uptime making the dodge comparatively better and the crit comparatively more useful for generating EB stacks). If you're going to actually intelligently use trinket Use effects, they're worth a bit more, but still offer a much lower total uptime than proc effects.

drtyprior · 01/16/13, 11:49 PM

I have no idea how to use Venyasure's spreadsheet; however, he did mention the update to the Ox statue greatly changes the value of crit. Do you plan on updating your stat rankings so I can throw them in AskMrRobot?

Also, you don't list Stamina with a stat value. What do you normally throw into AskMrRobot? I'm running with a value of .5 right now.

Thanks!

Noobiisa · 01/17/13, 2:53 AM

Originally Posted by lairpie

No, it would vary Dramatically between fights, raid comps, player skill, your other gear, and amount you value your personal damage. To get a real list you'd basically have to make one for each different fight, sometimes noting differences between 10 and 25, or how abundant healing is. Generally, you're probably best off getting a [Bottle of Infinite Stars] and never taking it off other than Lei'Shi, and using a stamina trinket or [Relic of Xuen] based on the fight. If you asked everyone, you'd find a large degree of variation based on different math that is still actually just based on their (or more likely someone else's) opinions on the numbers that went into the math. There's no "this one does more damage than the other one" type ranking like you can get most times for damage trinkets.

If you're looking for just raw damage reduction (and coincidentally damage done), [Bottle of Infinite Stars] (reforged to haste) and [Relic of Xuen] are great. If you want more help surviving through burst damage use stamina trinkets, or don't reforge the bottle to haste. If you're looking to mitigate the spikiness of the damage you take, but aren't actually too worried about dying (like Gara'jal), you might even use Bottle and [Vial of Dragon's Blood] but the latter is pretty much terrible. If you're trying to do content while frankly undergeared, mastery is comparatively better. If lots of the damage (that you can't Zen Med/Diffuse Magic through) is magic, stamina shoots up in value. If you're tanking only part of the time like many fights Agi shoots up in value (because of increased EB uptime making the dodge comparatively better and the crit comparatively more useful for generating EB stacks). If you're going to actually intelligently use trinket Use effects, they're worth a bit more, but still offer a much lower total uptime than proc effects.

You forgot to mention [Terror in the Mists], which is BIS trinket, especially while we only have to do 8x AP dmg to proc Statue and it has nice synergy with 2xT14 piece, as you will have more EB uptime.

Then apart from that, if you are not in danger of dying in the fight (fights like Heroic Empress where if you have a bad avoidance streak, the adds pulverise you or Heroic Sha with Thrash), you swap in stamina trinkets in, ideally with On-Use if the dmg can be expected. Example, the trash trinket from MSV has a nice on use Mastery, which at certain times of dmg is helpful, as it takes all RNG ouf of it atleast for mastery.

TLDR: Use [Terror in the Mists] and then either [Bottle of Infinite Stars] or [Relic of Xuen], the last 2 are closish to each other. Swap out with stamina/mastery trinkets for fights with really high dmg at stages, just so you survive the hits without relying on your avoidance, i.e bad rng and the tank dies is very frustrating in a 14min fight, I personally, although this differs from each person and your current gear as well, I use Terror and then swap out 1 stamina trinket, just to make some fights totally safe for me and my healers.

Pisshands · 01/17/13, 4:19 AM

Originally Posted by drtyprior

I have no idea how to use Venyasure's spreadsheet; however, he did mention the update to the Ox statue greatly changes the value of crit. Do you plan on updating your stat rankings so I can throw them in AskMrRobot?

Also, you don't list Stamina with a stat value. What do you normally throw into AskMrRobot? I'm running with a value of .5 right now.

Thanks!

The crit value change is only as a function of group damage reduction. It does not alter personal damage reduction values at all. I do not list Stamina because it is a damage reduction statistic list, and Stamina provides zero damage reduction. The amount of Stamina you require is a personal issue to work out with your healers, but I use base Stamina from gear.