Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Monks

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01/17/13, 5:21 AM   #61
Pisshands
Von Kaiser
 
Pisshands's Avatar
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Bleeding Hollow
Originally Posted by Taser View Post
Secondly, players have been curious about the combat table chances against players of boss mobs. What is described in that blog post is indeed accurate for a boss attacking a player. That does mean that a player has a base 3% chance to be missed, 3% chance to dodge (if they know Dodge), 3% chance to parry (if they know Parry), and 3% chance to block (if they know Block). That chance is indeed reduced by 1.5% per level difference, so a 92+ will never miss a 90. So to use a simple example, a monk with no parry on gear or other buffs has a 3% base parry chance, plus 5% from Swift Reflexes, for a total character sheet parry chance of 8%. A level 93 boss attacking that Monk will get parried 3.5% of the time. Hope that clears things up.

MMO-Champion - Flippable Table, MoP Music Update, Beta Class Balance Analysis, Blue Posts
I spent a while looking through logs and found zero misses, so I was sure that bosses are not able to miss, and found similarly reduced dodge and parry chances relative to base avoidances and shuffle/EB uptimes in logs as well.

I appreciate you dredging that old post up to get an actual blue response on the subject.

This does mean that Night Elf is worth .5% avoidance, not 2%, which makes them quite garbage. Night Elf bonus is evidently dodge again, instead of increased miss chance, so it's still worth 2% avoidance and still far and away the best damage "reduction" race (quotes since it's avoidance). Hooray.

Last edited by Pisshands : 01/17/13 at 5:58 AM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/17/13, 5:36 AM   #62
Pisshands
Von Kaiser
 
Pisshands's Avatar
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Bleeding Hollow
New patch note from MMO-Champion:

Brewmaster

Black Ox Statue
The damage requirement to activate Sanctuary of the Ox has been increased by 100%. The spell tooltip has been updated to reflect the change.
Consider the recently discovered value of Sanctuary of the Ox nerfed back to what we believed it to be. Blizzard got our hopes up, then dashed them quite expertly.

Last edited by Pisshands : 01/17/13 at 5:48 AM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/17/13, 10:16 AM   #63
morgrel
Glass Joe
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Well of Eternity (EU)
So basically if i understand your guide well we have to gem:

Red: 160 Agility ?
Yellow: 80 Agility&160Haste or 320Haste or 80 Agility&160Crit or 320Crit ?
Blu: 80 Agility&160hit ?
Meta: 216 Agi&3% crit bonus?

Last edited by morgrel : 01/17/13 at 10:22 AM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/17/13, 10:58 AM   #64
MomysLidlMonsta
Glass Joe
 
Troll Monk
 
Eredar (EU)
Originally Posted by morgrel View Post
So basically if i understand your guide well we have to gem:

Red: 160 Agility ?
Yellow: 80 Agility&160Haste or 320Haste or 80 Agility&160Crit or 320Crit ?
Blu: 80 Agility&160hit ?
Meta: 216 Agi&3% crit bonus?
More along the lines of
Red: Exp/Haste
Yellow: Haste
Blue Hit/Haste

I personally use the stamina/armor meta, because 2% armor is quite big imo and 3% crit damage is next to useless for damage reduction

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/17/13, 11:54 AM   #65
Kraun
Glass Joe
 
Troll Shaman
 
Ghostlands
Originally Posted by MomysLidlMonsta View Post
More along the lines of
Red: Exp/Haste
Yellow: Haste
Blue Hit/Haste

I personally use the stamina/armor meta, because 2% armor is quite big imo and 3% crit damage is next to useless for damage reduction
The 2% armor only adds about 300-400 armor depending on your gear. If you are choosing the stam gem over the agi gem you are much better to go with the 2% magic damage reduction. In long term mitigation though assuming you have enough stam to survive a few blows the agi gem will win out due to the dodge and crit granted.

Though I hear there is a new legendary meta in the new patch which will be the way to go anyway.

Last edited by Kraun : 01/17/13 at 12:02 PM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/17/13, 12:44 PM   #66
Brotherbear
Piston Honda
 
Orc Rogue
 
Frostwolf
Originally Posted by Pisshands View Post
New patch note from MMO-Champion:



Consider the recently discovered value of Sanctuary of the Ox nerfed back to what we believed it to be. Blizzard got our hopes up, then dashed them quite expertly.
Wasn't the "buff" determined to be how it is on live? And, if so, isn't this a pretty significant nerf to our raid bubbles? With the cap on vengeance I don't see how we could be scaling such that we'd need this much of a nerf at this stage of the expansion.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/17/13, 12:49 PM   #67
 promdates
King Beard
 
promdates's Avatar
 
Tauren Paladin
 
Turalyon
From the Brewmaster Basic Discussion thread:
Originally Posted by Venyasure View Post
This change was petty surprising, as it was well known, from WoL and the like, that the Statue was already quite powerful. Then it was suggested to me that it was just a tooltip change. I must admit that although i've done many tests concerning tooltips and game formulas accuracy, i had never tested whether it was true that you need to do 16 times your AP for your Statue to cast a Guard. Therefore i made a couple of tests, and it seems that indeed, the 5.2 "change" is juste a tooltip update. You already need to deal only 8 times your AP for a Statue Guard in 5.1, and possibly 5.0. The spreadsheets i've uploaded so far have the 1600% tooltip value that i hadn't tested, instead of the 800% actual value.
Apparently the 1600% was a tooltip error, and we've only had to do 800% the entire time. They're testing 1600% on the PTR.

BNet: promdates#1460

United States Online
Reply With Quote
Old 01/17/13, 5:52 PM   #68
lairpie
Don Flamenco
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Sargeras
Originally Posted by Brotherbear View Post
Wasn't the "buff" determined to be how it is on live? And, if so, isn't this a pretty significant nerf to our raid bubbles? With the cap on vengeance I don't see how we could be scaling such that we'd need this much of a nerf at this stage of the expansion.
blue post:
"General
Attack Power gained from Vengeance is now capped at the player's maximum health."

First, the cap is your HP, not some fraction of it or something. It is certainly not common to be getting in excess of 500k AP from vengeance, so this is going to have no effect on the normal course of play. I imagine this was just a fix to prevent things like taking some ridiculous hit that you're completely supposed to die from with Diffuse Magic and Zen med up, then turning around and destroying the boss. A monk with fort brew, zen med, diffuse magic (or even dampen harm for that matter), guard, pws, life cocoon, maybe some spirit shell could live through a hit for many millions of damage, which would result in completely imbalanced levels of attack power for a while. Further, you could leave Guard out of that list, get hit for 500 million or whatever by some aoe you're supposed to dodge, then guard and be invincible for 30 seconds.

Secondly, because the amount of damage you have to do in order to get a statue bubble scales with the AP you have, vengeance doesn't have nearly as big of an effect on your statue bubbling as it does on your damage. What has a far greater effect is how many targets you're hitting. On Wind Lord I (and i'm sure most monks) are doing as much or more healing than most healers are capable of, simply by aoeing all of the adds. While it's personally cool to be tanking, do a million dps, and top the healing meters, i can't say it's really very balanced.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/17/13, 6:42 PM   #69
Bemxuu
Von Kaiser
 
Bemxuu's Avatar
 
Troll Druid
 
Ясеневый лес (EU)
They nerfed ramp-up times to cope with vengeance generated by single hits. I guess it's recent 80 lvl pally thing - due to Vengeance calculation bug he was getting to few millions worth vengeance and absorbing all the damage with Sacred Shield. So, there you go - a cap. Instead of a bugfix : )

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/17/13, 8:29 PM   #70
Xydan
Glass Joe
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Dalaran (EU)
Originally Posted by MomysLidlMonsta View Post
More along the lines of
Red: Exp/Haste
Yellow: Haste
Blue Hit/Haste

I personally use the stamina/armor meta, because 2% armor is quite big imo and 3% crit damage is next to useless for damage reduction
Personally, I use the blue & the red slots in hit / exp to gain a lot in stats with reforge. After my tests, I passed from 4800 to 5000 in haste just after changing my gems.

After that, like someone said previously, the agility / crit meta is more interesting, considering that crit brings you more EB, and that Agility brings dodge, even if that's not the priority.

France Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/18/13, 5:02 AM   #71
MomysLidlMonsta
Glass Joe
 
Troll Monk
 
Eredar (EU)
Originally Posted by Xydan View Post
Personally, I use the blue & the red slots in hit / exp to gain a lot in stats with reforge. After my tests, I passed from 4800 to 5000 in haste just after changing my gems.

After that, like someone said previously, the agility / crit meta is more interesting, considering that crit brings you more EB, and that Agility brings dodge, even if that's not the priority.
The Agility meta gives 0.24% dodge before diminishing returns and 0.29% crit from Agility (including +5% stats buff) and about 1% more self-heal(if it's not overheal) and statue absorbs from the increased critical effect (note that it's not critical strike chance), depending on your crit chance.
The Armor meta gives 0.5-0.6% physical damage reduction depending on your armor and about 60k hp which does nothing for your damage reduction.
So I don't think it's such a foregone conclusion as you make it sound.

The mentioned 2% Magical Damage reduction meta is also interesting, but in the current content only Lei Shi (and maybe Elegon if your raid is a bit undergeared) deal dangerous magical damage imo, so I don't think it's such a good coice at the moment but that can very well change with Throne of Thunder.

P.S.: The numbers I used were 951.2 Agility/1% dodge and 780Agility/1%crit.

P.P.S.: Protectors might also favor the magical meta, but I'm tanking Kaolan for Elite mode and DPSing for non-elite, so I'm not really sure.

edit: I used the rogue values for agi/crit by accident

Last edited by MomysLidlMonsta : 01/18/13 at 5:08 AM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/18/13, 5:50 AM   #72
Pisshands
Von Kaiser
 
Pisshands's Avatar
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Bleeding Hollow
Originally Posted by MomysLidlMonsta View Post
The Agility meta gives 0.24% dodge before diminishing returns and 0.29% crit from Agility (including +5% stats buff) and about 1% more self-heal(if it's not overheal) and statue absorbs from the increased critical effect (note that it's not critical strike chance), depending on your crit chance.
The Armor meta gives 0.5-0.6% physical damage reduction depending on your armor and about 60k hp which does nothing for your damage reduction.
So I don't think it's such a foregone conclusion as you make it sound.

The mentioned 2% Magical Damage reduction meta is also interesting, but in the current content only Lei Shi (and maybe Elegon if your raid is a bit undergeared) deal dangerous magical damage imo, so I don't think it's such a good coice at the moment but that can very well change with Throne of Thunder.

P.S.: The numbers I used were 951.2 Agility/1% dodge and 780Agility/1%crit.

P.P.S.: Protectors might also favor the magical meta, but I'm tanking Kaolan for Elite mode and DPSing for non-elite, so I'm not really sure.

edit: I used the rogue values for agi/crit by accident
Those numbers seem sound at first glance. The thing people don't keep in mind when comparing the metas is that the Armor/Stamina one does nothing for dps, while the Agi/Crit Damage meta is clearly designed for dps. It has real tanking value as well and is probably comparable, although it does depend upon the scenario. In my experience, tank damage matters a lot in progression raiding, and the gain in damage is often worth taking an even/slightly inferior gem for the total benefit provided.

Here is my basic take on Monk secondary stat priority:
Stamina and Mastery prioritization is highly suboptimal for damage reduction. It just is, mathematically. It provides healers with much more room to accomodate for burst damage, but will result in an increase in total damage taken.
Haste and Crit prioritization is much better for damage reduction over the course of a fight, but has a lower margin for error.
A wrench gets thrown in the works when a Monk is terribly undergeared for a fight featuring spike damage, and in this case the best way to handle the situation is to deviate from the mathematically superior total damage reduction priority in favor of the burst damage reduction priority. This is also very strongly a function of player skill. A Monk-playing Robot with instant response times could probably have tanked a guild's first Heroic Gara'jal on a Brewmaster Monk using a standard Haste build without difficulty, but most players were going the Mastery/Stamina route and still found it pretty painful.

I think this pertains to the meta quandary in much the same way. The Agi/Crit Damage meta is just all-around superior as a gem. However, there are situations when the Monk needs a Stamina/Armor (or magic damage reduction) meta instead, despite its being suboptimal, just to live through punishing burst damage.

Also, the value of an armor increase is diminished as a damage reduction statistic by avoidance. It doesn't become less useful, mind you, but since you are not getting any benefit from armor when you avoid an attack, it is only useful on unavoided attacks. This is pretty obvious, but my point is that a .6% increase to damage reduction from armor is not a .6% damage reduction increase. It is a .6% * (% chance to be hit) damage reduction increase. So, going with a low estimate, let's say a Monk's avoidance chance against a boss is 34% (28% parry from base parry, Swift Reflexes and Shuffle, 15% dodge from gear and buffs, -4.5% parry and dodge from being a level 93 boss). This means chance to be hit is 66%, and the overall damage reduction would only be .396%.

Armor is good, really good, but it does not compare to avoidance in terms of total damage reduction. The historical issue with avoidance has always been the unreliability. Elusive Brew is a significant breakthrough in terms of player control, and is one of the most impressively designed tools Blizzard has ever given a tank class.

Unless this game suddenly becomes horribly designed at some point in the future, I will always recommend putting your gearing emphasis in favor of active mitigation rather than passive survivability, because it provides more control and puts more responsibility upon the individual to keep themselves alive. Yes, this is harder, but it is the right way, and that is what matters. Putting the pressure upon yourself to stay alive, instead of your healer, is the right way to tank.

Of course, gear however you feel comfortable, but I do not see a mathematical justification for gearing mastery/stamina until you have found a fight in which your inability to live through spike damage is causing wipes, and there is no gameplay alteration (e.g., changing cooldown usage) that can fix the problem.

Last edited by Pisshands : 02/15/13 at 7:20 PM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/18/13, 2:56 PM   #73
lairpie
Don Flamenco
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Sargeras
I really agree with Pisshands on this. Outside of a scenario where you are doing content that is frankly designed for players in much better gear (aka many week1/week2 HM kills), Elusive Brew, Guard, and to an extent other CDs are the direct counter to the last 8 years of saying "well avoidance would be good, but I can't control it so I die when i'm unlucky." This becomes even more true in any fight with tank swaps where you essentially double your possible EB awesomeness. I die for 3 reasons:
1. I screwed up using CDs, usually because I'm also trying to play about 15 other characters like it's a RTS game and I have to tell them where to stand and what to attack every couple seconds or they are useless/dead. I'm definitely not good enough to do that to the extent I always used to on my druid when it barely mattered what buttons I hit other than defensive CDs.
2. I go 10 seconds without getting any actual (non hot/aoe/beacon) heals more often than I have cooldowns to cover. Usually because my healers are dead or someone else is standing in a fire because I didn't do a good enough job of playing the aforementioned wow 25 man raid leading RTS.
3. I get agro when I'm not supposed to.

After a few pulls on a new boss of me being a pretty much terrible tank because I just sort of mash buttons semi randomly and watch everyone else, the first 2 are almost a non issue. The 3rd is a bit more trouble, but I can usually get blessing of salvationed to victory without having to gimp up my resource generation. I think i'm going to experiment with dropping out to tiger at the loss of a lot of shuffle stacking.

Last edited by lairpie : 01/18/13 at 2:57 PM. Reason: counting to 2/3 is hard

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/18/13, 5:08 PM   #74
Bemxuu
Von Kaiser
 
Bemxuu's Avatar
 
Troll Druid
 
Ясеневый лес (EU)
Originally Posted by Pisshands View Post
A Monk-playing Robot with instant response times could probably have tanked a guild's first Heroic Gara'jal on a Brewmaster Monk using a standard Haste build without difficulty, but most players were going the Mastery/Stamina route and still found it pretty painful.

Also, the value of an armor increase is diminished as a damage reduction statistic by avoidance. It doesn't become less useful, mind you, but since you are not getting any benefit from armor when you avoid an attack, it is only useful on unavoided attacks. This is pretty obvious, but my point is that a .6% increase to damage reduction from armor is not a .6% damage reduction increase. It is a .6% * (% chance to be hit) damage reduction increase. So, going with a low estimate, let's say a Monk's avoidance chance against a boss is 34% (28% parry from base parry, Swift Reflexes and Shuffle, 15% dodge from gear and buffs, -4.5% parry and dodge from being a level 93 boss). This means chance to be hit is 66%, and the overall damage reduction would only be .396%.
Oh Gee, I'm a robot O_o I wasn't supposed to handle all that captchas, was I?
Out of all heavy tank punishment fights you have chosen exactly one which escalates the value of DR compared to EH :-D Regardless of how much stamina you stack, it literally does nothing to Voodoo Dolls. I've heard of a feature which caused Shadowy Attacks to be affected by Stagger, but I never really tested it, I just went all haste - if I wasn't lucky enough to generate a single stack of EB within 10 seconds, I had other buttons to push.


Actually, value of armor percentage-wise stays the same. Yes, if overall possible damage is 360M, you have 30% armor damage reduction, you still reduce all the remaining damage taken by 30% even if you dodge 95% of it. It will be less in absolute values - which, probably, was your point - and I couldn't agree more, that guarantee of dodging the next attack after being hit by previous one significantly reduces the value of EH. But only on guarantee. Let's say you sit at 55% avoidance in average during the course of the fight. Your chances to suffer, say, 4hit streak are about 4%. However, with 1,5 second swing time and 6 minutes duration there are 240 attacks to dodge. Let's say half of them are your offtanks' problem, not yours. That's still 120 attacks, each of which could be a beginning of that 4 streak. With 96% chance "this" one is not one of them, we have 117 possible beginnings. You can make your own assesment of odds of not getting one at all. If there's nothing you have to save you from one and not enough EH to heal through one, you're dead. Of course, there will be heals from healers, but switching from mana-conserving healing to burst healing either takes some time or costs a lot of mana. So, the only way you can handle such streak is constant control over damage taken (combat text helps here) and saving something for such cases. If former is done easily and is nothing but an average skill challenge, the latter one hurts your TDR. Yep, not using some defensive cooldowns as soon as they are available hurts your TDR, but helps your survivability. That's why I always keep Expel Harm and enough energy on it for cases where I take 3 attacks in a row - that lowers those 4hit requirement to 3hit, since I can selfheal myself back to the zone where that 4th hit is not dangerous for me. In case of 4th hit landing there are health stones. For a 5th hit I hit Zen without doubts. So, 2 cooldowns popped suboptimally. TDR screams in pain. Am I a noob then? : ) I do all of that and - and I still see my healers switching to flash heals when I drop low.
P.S. For those of you who would argue, actual number of possibilities to begin that streak is much lower in real encounters. You tank for 30 seconds, then swap, so you suffer 20 attacks (not hits), out of which only 17 could be the beginning of that hit streak and you have more avoidance due to pooled EB stacks, but even then you're not bad luck-immune. So I cannot agree with Lairpie on it. Being someone who caused few 5-10% wipes on Heroic Will due to bad luck streaks (5-6 hits even with EB up and no healthstones left), I learned to value my Effective Health safety-cushion and always have an ace in the hole. That's why I nearly always wear at least one stam trinket whenever I'm not forced to contribute to dps (second one is usually Stuff of nightmares - I like pooling EB stacks for it, combining both or even stall activating a Relic for a total 90-92% paperdoll dodge chance, if that doesn't hurt its uptime too much).

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 01/18/13, 6:12 PM   #75
Pisshands
Von Kaiser
 
Pisshands's Avatar
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Bleeding Hollow
I chose Gara'jal because the only other fight that hits that hard and was pretty thoroughly experienced by the body of Monk players that came to mind was Will of the Emperor, and the issue with that fight for most tanks is failure to dodge. If you don't perfectly dodge on Will, your slow feet are a bigger issue than gearing. Others may have experienced issues on that fight even while perfectly dodging, but I did not at all. Elusive Brew, DHarm and Guard trivialize the fight pretty effectively - on our first kill I had 66% avoidance on melee attacks. Insanity.

In the heat of the moment, overall damage reduction is less important than living through that burst damage. There are two ways to use Guard and EB: maximum damage reduction or as a lifeline in emergencies. I promote the emergency usage route on cooldowns and I gear for overall damage reduction. I think this provides a good balance.

However, I do think there is a limit to overall damage reduction gearing through Haste, and I think that gear values in t15 and beyond will most likely result in a shift from Haste gearing toward either Crit or Mastery. This is not to say that Haste will no longer possess value, but after reaching 9k+ Haste with Ascension, the amount of energy regeneration begins to become unwieldy. The 25% buff to Mastery will certainly make it a more attractive statistic, and Crit is already a rather valuable damage reduction statistic at present, so I think we could see a point at which transitioning from Haste to Crit or Mastery may be worthwhile. To be clear, this is all just conjecture at this point.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Monks

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Addon resource usage? Groglox User Interface and AddOns 29 04/17/07 3:37 PM