There wont be a time even near in the future where you couldnt gem expertise for red socket in some form and have a problem reforging for optimal values afterwards.

That said, if you are truly interested in stat values in non typical conditions, like when you are at 500k vengeance, consult the spreadsheet and insert your values in to it. I doubt much will change regarding the secondaries though.

Thanks for the bug report, it pretty much sums it up as we all said, lets just hope it sees the light of day soon.

For expertise gemming, I really dont see a reason why you will not be under 5100 rating as a tank in raids. It has been discussed earlier in this thread, and apart from if Haste vs Expertise for Chi generation which where very close in the end at certain levels, expertise route takes out any rng of missing a crucial attack (snap threat when 6 adds pop, you had to pop emergency guard, so you are low on chi and smash gets parried, etc), it is substantially more dps which in itself means more guards on the raid. Apart from that, with 5.2 gear it will even be less of an issue to get all caps you require without gimping yourself, not that it is an issue now with raid gear.

Chi is capped at 4. Unless you're struggling to maintain EB and purify, you should be sitting at 2 Chi.

And new topic. What do you think about 300 exp food (fish rep) ? My napkin math shows close effects of 600 agi and 600 exp on my survivability, and adding some more reliability to rotation is worth the loss, imo.

Even if agi and exp were 1:1 in values (they arent), you shouldnt compare them like that.

Consider this. You will cap expertise anyway. If you are 600 rating short, you can either reforge/gem/enchant and get it from your gear. More than likely you will sacrifice some combination of haste/crit totaling 600 to do this. Or you can eat food and forfeit 600 agility.

Correct question is, how does 600 agi match up against 600 crit or haste and I believe you know the answer to that.

I think what he means is: "Assuming you have made the decision to not hard cap expertise, how would expertise food compare with agi?"

There are plenty of reasons why you wouldn't cap expertise. If you're not tanking the whole time crit jumps in value quite a bit as you can keep EB up for a much greater percentage of the time you're tanking and expertise beyond the dodge cap plummets in value because you can get behind the mob for 1/2 the fight. In a fight that just hits punishingly hard, you could want a lot more mastery, and feel you can get healed through the stagger from not purifying as much just fine.

I'd image it's on a case by case. Considering if you're making the decision to use expertise food but have previously made the decision to forego expertise on your gear you have some reason for the contradiction. Generally for me the swing stat is agi vs. stam where food is concerned (magic or unavoidable damage fights).

I'm curious what situations bring up the thought "I don't want more expertise on my gear, but I'd love to get the food buff."

Given how relative values of our stats change depenging not only on damage taken, but also value of dps increase vs dtps reduction, it is completely viable question

Killed all the 5.2 preview sections of the main post and added a "What's New?" bit. That will have a shelf life on it of a month-ish, maybe. I'll be adding new bits along the way, and I am looking to expand the secondary stat comparison in the immediate future. The tier 15 2pc and 4pc bonuses definitely improve the value of Crit and reduce the value of Haste, respectively.

Now, the degree to Haste and Crit shift with acquiring Tier 15 and how this interacts with Expertise, Hit and Mastery is a pretty complex puzzle to sort out, but I intend to find at least one answer about something in this mixed-up, crazy world, even if it is about made-up video game nonsense. So that's next on the to-do list. I went over it in the main post, but the t15 4pc is effectively worth 4 Energy/second in the absolute best case scenario, which is a ton.

To go into more detail: Now that our Chi heals cost no Chi, we have only 4 spells that require Chi. BK (and RJW, which is just BK for topping the meter on add fights), Guard, PB and BoF. I ordered these spells in terms of usefulness to tanking. The only use for the latter is to rule the meters on add fights like the Dark Lord Sauron - which I do and I wholeheartedly endorse you do the same. PB is far from useless, but it is a less crucial element of our arsenal than Shuffle and Guard. Healers can heal through me having a Heavy Stagger for several seconds. 60k dps from Stagger is not that deadly. Taking five un-shuffled, un-avoided attacks in a row is more threatening than letting a Heavy Stagger tick a couple times.
So, what t15 4pc does for us is basically provide 1 free PB every 10 ticks of Stagger, meaning it provides a free opportunity to use our least useful Chi ability. I am reticent to say it provides 1 free Chi, but it sort of does.
In one way, it's actually way better than getting free Chi: no Chi/Energy capping.
In another way, it's worse: you can't use it on more useful Chi abilities - Guard/BK.
So, as I said in the main post, this is worth 4 Energy/second if Stagger ticks every second of a fight. Kind of. Now, that's never going to happen, but I don't think that this set bonus will actually put a significant dent into Stagger uptime, just the size of the Staggers.

There are three factors for Stagger uptime:

1. Being attacked by a boss
2. Avoidance
3. PB usage

So, as long as you are actually tanking and not in a holding pattern on a stupid tank swap fight (Sha of Fear), you are probably going to be Staggering damage most of the time (very scientific). Yes, there may be streaks of time in which you dodge for 10 seconds, or you may dodge several attacks after using PB. Grand, but generally you will be Staggering, and that means that you will regularly be generating free PB's. Even at a 50% uptime on Stagger, this bonus is worth 2 Energy/second worth of free PB's. Now, that's not a good enough reason to rid our gear of haste once we have 4pc, but I do think it's sufficient to allow us to look into prioritizing other stats at a lower base value of haste, especially with how much more damage we will be Staggering thanks to the buff to Mastery and the new 2pc.

And that's great.

You are missing the point. If you dont want to be hit/exp capped, it doesnt change the point of my example whatsoever.

Say you want exactly 4000 expertise. You could either get 3400 combined from gear/gems/enchants/reforges and eat exp food, losing the 600 agi from food. Or you could get 4000 from the formerly mentioned and eat agi food, losing either crit or haste from the extra reforging.

If you want to reach a certain threshold of a stat anyway, you shouldnt compare the gains but rather the losses acquiring said cap.

Has anyone else gotten their hands on a Thunderforged Bad Juju?
It seems that the uptimes on it are abysmal at best, proccing on one Magera attempt (or was it kill..? WoL wasn't functioning properly at the time) only TWICE in six minutes of practically 100% uptime, and only once on our Tortos kill. Our rogue that also got the trinket claims similar results.

I'm curious to know if such a low proc rate was intended, when Blizzard has stated themselves that Thunderforged were supposedly going to have a higher proc rate coefficient.

Here is our 6:01 Magera attempt
Details for Brewzaky - 06-03 19:13 - Shattered Oath - World of Logs

And our Tortos kill
Details for Brewzaky - 06-03 19:13 - Shattered Oath - World of Logs
Looking over it, yes I am quite aware of my horrid shuffle uptime here. I was tanking the bats and trying to mark turtles for the ranged.

I wouldn't really want the thing as BrM anyway, given that the passive is Mastery, but if the procrate is really that low and you're not just getting attempts way below the average, then it is *quite* bad and probably needs a second look from Blizzard.
A single proc in almost 7 minutes of Tortos is a problem.