[WW] 5.2 -Enter the Fist - Page 15

Dopameany · 02/14/13, 1:52 AM

This might be a dumb question but does FoF snapshot anything (agi/TeB/haste... Etc) upon initial cast and channel that way for its duration even if buffs drop or does it update dynamically? Going to assume the latter but wanted to make sure.

saboya · 02/14/13, 9:53 AM

It does not snapshot.

Crevan · 02/14/13, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Crevan

GC spilled some info about trinket and legenrady meta procs on the forums. The whole list is here.

What I find a bit interesting and strange is that none of the trinkets (save for the Shado-Pan valor one) have a long ICD: the two with an ICD are at 22 seconds, but with a low proc rate. Am I right in thinking that this will make those trinkets somewhat unpredictable?

Some initial calculations on the RPPM trinkets.

Assumptions: 2.9115 attacks/ticks per second (you can calculate this number from simcraft reports), 5437 haste rating. This will obviously depend on your gear, and if your numbers are different, the trinket values will differ as well.

RPPM system is basically a Poisson Process, so we can calculate the average time between two events (procs) relatively easily. With the above assumptions, I get the following:

Bad Juju - avg. time between procs 96.375 sec, 20.75% uptime
Talisman of Bloodlust - avg. time between procs 15.773 sec
Rune of Re-origination - avg. time between procs 104.786 sec, 19.09% uptime
Rentaki's Soul Charm - avg. time between procs 86.013 sec, 23.25% uptime

The Talisman can stack, so calculating the uptime for it will be a bit tricky. I might do it some time later, if someone else doesn't before me.

Bad Juju is the easy one here - gives an average of 1521.5975 agility. Plus the voodoo gnomes of doom.

Soul Charm, assuming the average value of the proc to be 13330/2=6665 agility, gives an average of 1549.6125 agility. Given the increasing nature of the buff, if might be more or less valuable, depending when it procs and what you stack it with.

The Rune is probably the trickiest one, since its value depends on the rest of your gear, and you'll be losing two of your stats to buff a third one.

Note: the Rune and Soul Charm have ICDs, but I assume that the trinkets still have a chance to proc during the ICD, but the proc is "blocked" if it actually occurs while the buff is still up. If the "chance to proc" is active only after the ICD, then the average times to proc will be 22 seconds longer, and the uptimes are 15.77% and 18.52% respectively.

tastysnack · 02/14/13, 2:43 PM

I find it somewhat upsetting how long our ICD is in comparison to the Str one. That's a 30S delta. I guess we do double-dip from Agi, though, but 1/1200 of crit point-for-point is... hm. It just doesn't seem like much of an upgrade from H Terror or H Elegon.

My early math with it shows an average of 1.6K during a 6 minute fight, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Other than the gnomes being awesome, I foresee Bad Juju being strong not just due to its high uptime, but also due to its strong secondary. Going by Crevan's math, Soul Charm should be the next best.

Rune sounds like it would be strong... but TeB would need a #cancelaura for sure to remove lost haste/crit - meaning, I see it being strong for a high mastery build, because we could remove the buff, as I assume TeB snapshots your mastery. Since that's our mastery in a bottle... that's the only legitimate way I see of using it. The flat agility is nice, too.

Crevan · 02/14/13, 5:23 PM

Some more info about procs and stuff, directly from GC on the forums.

Rune of Re-origination mechanics:

At proc time, it checks how much crit, haste, and mastery you have (yes, this is a snapshot, and does NOT include the mastery raid buff). It finds which is the highest of those 3 (tie breaking rule: crit trumps haste trumps mastery), and gives you a buff of +[sum of lowest two stats] to your highest stat, and -[lowest stat A] and -[lowest stat B]. For example, if you have 6000 mastery, 3000 crit, 2000 haste, and the proc goes off, it gives you a buff that provides [+5000 mastery, -3000 crit, -2000 haste]. It does not continue adjusting that buff as stats change during its duration. Yes, this means that if you have a temporary buff to a stat that is not your highest (even with the temporary buff), and that temporary buff falls off during Re-Origination, you *could* end up with negative rating. In this obscure edge case, negative crit does reduce your crit chance, negative mastery does reduce whatever it normally does, and negative haste is ignored.

Yes, [...Capacitative Primal Diamond can cause a critical strike...], but it uses your spell crit/hit rates.

Crevan · 02/14/13, 7:21 PM

Originally Posted by Crevan

Assumptions: 2.9115 attacks/ticks per second (you can calculate this number from simcraft reports), 5437 haste rating. This will obviously depend on your gear, and if your numbers are different, the trinket values will differ as well.

I wrote a function in Matlab to simulate the behaviour of the Talisman of Bloodlust. Same assumptions as before, 100000 iterations of a 10 minute stationary tank and spank fight. Heroism during the first 40 seconds and the buff from the trinket itself affecting the chance to proc it.

If I didn't mess anything up in designing and coding the function, then the trinket gives 1440 haste on average (1415 median value). With 7000 haste and 3 attacks/ticks per second I got 1505 haste on average (1481 median).

Would be nice if someone else could run some numbers in their own spreadsheet/sim to check if what I got checks out.

EDIT: I wanted to get 5.2 stat weights from Simc 510-10 PTR to compare the trinkets, but I am getting a value for mastery that is half of the live number. Given the new mastery mechanics, I have a feeling there's something wrong here. Any ideas?

Vishiz · 02/17/13, 4:19 AM

Just some thoughts on the Rune of Re-Origination that I had posted on MMO-Champ but I'm not sure who uses that.

I'm considering going with a ~5k haste > Mastery > Crit. Using Rune and Bad Juju
Mastery as my top stat, then getting 10+ stacks of TEB waiting for a trinket proc, using TEB, Cancelaura on the trinket and enjoying near 80% TEB without losing my haste and crit entirely.

using a /cast Tigereyebrew /cancelaura Re-origination will make life a lot easier.

Currently on the PTR I have

5200 haste
4000 crit
6800 mastery

so I'd get 9200 mastery from the proc, which equals 30% more damage on TEB at 10 stacks. Pop my TEB macro, and end up with a 78%ish TEB along with the 5200 haste and 4000 crit, sounds tasty. Obviously higher at higher gear levels.

Is there any way one of you math wizards can put a value to using it like that?

Crevan · 02/17/13, 10:18 AM

The actual value of the Rune proc when you use it like that will always be <the sum of your two lowest ratings> of your highest rating. So, in your example - 9200 mastery rating, or between 1450 and 1748 rating on average (depending on how exactly the ICD works on this one). The actual benefit you get from the trinket will be higher, since you will always be using the proc when it's most valuable. And obviously, as you get more combat ratings on your gear, the trinket will become more valuable as well.

tastysnack · 02/17/13, 5:11 PM

Originally Posted by Crevan

The actual value of the Rune proc when you use it like that will always be <the sum of your two lowest ratings> of your highest rating. So, in your example - 9200 mastery rating, or between 1450 and 1748 rating on average (depending on how exactly the ICD works on this one). The actual benefit you get from the trinket will be higher, since you will always be using the proc when it's most valuable. And obviously, as you get more combat ratings on your gear, the trinket will become more valuable as well.

My issues with this trinket have also been expressed on MMO-Champ, ie, that we'd have to alter our play style and that it'd be better off as an on-use. That being said, I think it could potentially be extremely powerful for us (given the nature of our mastery) as-is, especially given the fact that it is seeming like Mastery will be more useful of a stat priority than Crit with a higher TeB uptime (and with 4set). (It's even funnier when you realize I'm the kind of person who hates on-use trinkets).

That being said - with you pointing this out - at higher gear levels, I think that this trinket will become nothing short of amazing for us. Ofc, we'll need something to track its procs and ICDs, and it can cause us to not be able to align TeB with other procs, but it'll be similar to FoF in that it can set great monks apart from good ones.

However - I think the average monk would not want to deal with having this trinket. Overall, we have great choices of trinkets this tier - this one will be especially strong for us, but I think that the other trinkets on this tier (other than the haste proc) will still be very good.

Looking forward to seeing the updated spreadsheet.

Crevan · 02/17/13, 8:06 PM

I don't mind altering my play style because of a trinket (still going by the old rogue axiom - "whatever works best"). I do think that developers will have an issue with this trinket in the end, since it has the potential of being another Unheeded Warning - something that may make only two classes extremely powerful in a very specific situation. In addition, the way we are planning to use it is somewhat exploitative - we're planning to get all the benefits without the downsides by cancelling the buff right after hitting TEB. Blizzard generally does not like making macros mandatory for the correct and optimal way of playing.

I won't be surprised if in the end the trinket is either re-designed, or changed in some way to prevent us from cheesing the proc.

Bemxuu · 02/17/13, 8:41 PM

If Blizz decides to remake it, it's super-easy: they will make the proc a debuff - it cannot be cancelled. However, they're totally fine with saving huge abilities for that proc - GC has posted some Enh Shammy examples.

It was on healers' topic, but that's relevant to everyone: does our 2H aspd bonus increase frequency of procs? If anyone has access to Beta, could you please test it?

PS
Does Slice and Dice count as haste for the real PPM system?
Yes. RPPM uses the highest of all haste/attack speed/cast speed effects.
^
that makes me think it should.

Crevan · 02/17/13, 8:50 PM

RPPM uses the "Haste" value from your char sheet if you're a melee. So yes, stuff like S&D, Way of the Monk and whatever's the feral attack speed self buff called affects it.

Littch · 02/17/13, 8:57 PM

I'm not thinking runes nerfs will come from pve anyway. I'm more thinking it will be a pvp change that makes them change how it works, it just seems unreasonable to be able to wait for the proc then get something like a 80% damage increase up while we have around 70% pvp power? Presuming of what we'll have. I mean if you do a rough numbers check out on that, RSK will effectively 1 shot somebody as long as it crits.

But if that doesn't happen, I'm more thinking they'll change how tiger eye brew snapshot works, since this wont be the only trinket in the expansion that causes problems with it. Either way if they change it before it goes live rather than 1/2 way through heroic raiding I will be happy.

Crevan · 02/19/13, 9:44 AM

Let's get back to the issue of Rune of Re-origination for a moment. We've had a lot of talk about how it "feels" or "seems" good/bad/broken etc., but we haven't done any calculations with it yet. I'll try to fill this gap now.

Here are the assumptions I am going to base my theory on:

BiS (or close to it) 5.1 gear, since we have all the relevant numbers for it available;
going from the previous point, we'll be working with 4368 haste rating, 7465 crit rating and 3469 mastery rating (this is what Mihir from ScrubBusters has);
we'll be exploiting our new mastery with the Rune procs, so let's shift 2000 crit rating into mastery, so we have 5465 crit and 5469 mastery;
this sort of gear will give us 131302 DPS in the PTR version of Simcraft 510-10, with 39611 DPS from passive attacks (white swings + tiger strikes), average Jab damage of 24016, average BoK damage of 136654.8 (including the dot), and average Tiger Palm damage of 47717. Abilities crit 41.7% of the time on average.

The haste rating we have gives us 4368/425 ~=10.28% haste. During the 20 seconds of the Rune proc, this translates into 1.028*1.15*20 ~= 23.64 energy. If we convert this energy into jabs and blackout kicks (plus possible CB procs), we get (23.64/40) * (24016 + 1.12*136654.8 + 0.12*47717) ~=108025.64 damage, or 5401.28 dps during the 20 seconds.

Losing 10.28% will decrease the passive DPS by 39611 - 39611*(1-0.1028) ~= 4071.08 DPS.

Overall, losing 4368 haste decreases the total dps to 131302 - 4071.08 - 5401.28 = 121829.64 DPS.

Let's apply the crit reduction. The rating from gear provides us with 5465 / 600 ~= 9.11% crit. Reducing our total crit by that much decreases the dps to ((1.417 - 0.0911) / 1.417) * 121829.64 ~= 113998.55 DPS. This is the value we end up with by losing 4368 haste rating and 5465 crit rating; it is a 13.2% reduction from our initial dps.

And now the good part. We have a total of 5465 + 5469 + 4368 = 15302 rating, which results in 15302 / 300 = 51.01% damage increase at 10 stacks of TEB. Applying this to our reduced dps and accounting for the base 26%, we end up with 113998.55 * 1.7701 ~= 201788.83 DPS, or a 53.68% increase from our starting value.

Assuming the uptime of the proc to be around 17%, we end up with 53.68% * 0.17 ~= 9.13% overall dps increase from this trinket.

All the above was done with current 5.1 gear in mind. Requital over at MMOChamp has drafted a BiS list for 5.2. Using that list's numbers, swapping Bad Juju for Rune of Re-origination and shifting some stats around to get more mastery than crit, we get 3872 haste, 7540 crit and 7624 mastery ratings, for a total of 19036. Now, I did not run Simcraft with that profile, since it would require a lot of manual gear entry and right now I'm too lazy for that. But just out of curiosity, let's make a silly assumption that all the relevant numbers (DPS and ability damage) will be increased by ((19036 / 15302) - 1) * 100 ~= 24.4%, and our ability crit chance will be 45%. Repeating all the above calculations with these new numbers, I got a 62.03% DPS increase during the Rune proc, or 10.55% overall dps increase.

So in theory (if I did not make any glaring mistakes in my thought process, and if I did, please point them out), the trinket is actually really good. Mind you, all this assumes that we do not cancel the buff to remove the haste/crit reductions (and I assume we won't be able to anyway). There's a lot of things that might skew the numbers either way (the trinket proccing and a good/bad time, the player actually noticing the proc and using TEB on time, having an optimal number of TEB stacks, etc), but we might have been very wrong to dismiss this trinket at first.

Schmoopy · 02/19/13, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Crevan

Blizzard generally does not like making macros mandatory for the correct and optimal way of playing.

First, I wouldn't classify classify cancel aura on Rune proc to be the "correct" way of playing even if it does math out as being optimal. Second, since when does right clicking a buff require a macro? Macros might make this easier, but are not at all mandatory.

Snarkyness aside, this would most likely be classified as clever use of game mechanics. Something which blizzard has rarely taken action to prevent.