[WW] 5.2 -Enter the Fist - Page 19

Nahela · 02/28/13, 11:55 AM

I use it regularly on Windlord, it's a nice boost. It's definitely worth it if you can, there's just not many opportunities.

Anatfo · 03/01/13, 8:13 AM

Originally Posted by keithioapc

I have always wondered about whether I could be gaining damage through the use of grapple weapon. I haven't really seen it discussed (forgive me if it has kindly link me!).

[snip]

Unless I'm reading the logs of the last few fights where I used my WW-offspec wrong, all my grapple weapons came up as immune on both spirit kings and vizier. There is no trace of having gotten the dps buff at all in either fights. I have no clue (and no way of testing it at the moment) if it works on, say, Windlord's adds.

Crevan · 03/01/13, 8:38 AM

It gives you a buff when you actually disarm something - that is when the boss/mob loses their weapon. If you can't steal the weapon, you won't get the buff. Windlord adds can be disarmed.

lairpie · 03/01/13, 11:05 AM

It also makes it a lot easier to not CC a Blademaster at all if you have a few rogues, monks, and warriors rotating disarms before they charge.

Dopameany · 03/02/13, 4:33 PM

Been thinking about FoF today, and using it with stacked targets as a DPS increase, and need some help, because I'm stuck.

First of all, assuming a normal rotation with FoF used on cooldown, is it 4 targets to swap to SCK or 3 for a DPS increase? Can't seem to find that.

Secondly, assuming three targets are stacked, a la protectors, and you want to dps all of them (aka pad). Let's assume the dps on them matters. Using FoF with stacked mobs spreads out the damage, and gives each individual tick a chance to crit, got that. Now, what I was working on today is, ON AVERAGE, this should work out to the same overall damage as just using FoF on one mob:

Assuming FoF ticks for 100k and your crit chance is 33%, each tick single-target would be an average of 1/3 of a crit, or 133k.

Assuming 3 stacked mobs, each tick hits for 33k per mob, with 1/3 of a chance to crit, so each tick is ~44k x 3 = 132k. Same.

However, this is kinda where I'm stuck. Since FoF is such a short duration cast, obviously increasing the frequency at which you crit, but lowering how hard you crit for, is better, but how much better? Is it really a DPS increase to do this? Also, is it 2 or 3 mobs before FoF becomes better to use in that scenario than RSK/BOK?

Thirdly, this logic would seem to lead you to FoF'ing on cooldown during a SEF cleave scenario, since in essence you're doing the same exact thing, just at range.

Dopameany · 03/02/13, 7:41 PM

Also, noticing if you have TeB up and summon a clone, they do not inherit the buff (visually), but only inherit it when you cast it after you summon them. Is this just a visual thing or is any buff to your personal dmg a buff to thiers as well?

Also of note: You have to TP buff the clone after you summon him as well. RSK also.

keithioapc · 03/04/13, 2:16 PM

@ Dopa

SCK is a large DPS increase on 3 targets, although SimulationCraft currently (v5.10.12) does not model the damage it does correctly and will not reflect this. This parse of LFR Stone Guards is a good example of the strength of 3 target SCK.

FoF really doesn't care how many targets you hit. Yes, multitarget it will will have a greater number of crits, but still the same % of crits. The greater number of crits still average out to the exact same damage as on 1 target, seeing as you have a proportionately equal greater number of non crits as well. The only thing more crits for is better uptime on things that proc from crits, such as the relic of xuen trinket.

tastysnack · 03/04/13, 2:27 PM

Dopamein: it's 4+ targets. Theoretically you can use it on 3 and generate the Chi, but mathematically it's 4+ targets required for an increase.

FoF is a gain on multiple targets due to each individual tick being able to crit. On Protectors, you can theoreitcally have a single tick (ofc split between teh 3) crit - so for 1 tick, that's 3 crits. Where it starts to degrade gets a bit fuzzy - because, obviously, the chance of all 3 ticks critting is slim to none. In the example you used, we're hitting 3 protectors at once, and a normal, unsplit hit is 99k (for an easy number, and not facting in the damage buff). So let's say that hits each one for ~33k. Well, if none crit that's still 99K, but if one crits then that's 132K total. If 2 crit it goes up from there, and I know that you understand the math at that point.

From there, calculate how much a single BoK crit would hit for - which I'm at work so I'm not going to use your logs to figure what your average is (same with why I won't just grab my own). If I recall, most of my math has shown BoK to hit for roughly the same as a single tick of FoF, or around 80K on protectors (I did not receive the stacking damage buff til end of the fight, so that has some bearing on this figuring - but my FoF ticks aren't too far off from the theoretics above, so I think it's a good baseline overall).

So, basically - your FoF crit rating is theoretically higher, because you could theoretically crit for 198K (if all 3 hits in a tick crit), but you're more "assured" (per se) to crit higher with BoK as its 160K crit is "guaranteed" vs. relying on RNG for a good series of crits with FoF. However, keep in mind, too, that your FoF cast will become shorter and shorter - I believe that we'll be in the 2s range next tier, vs. current ~3s range. So, there's also that to consider (which is used in the initial calculation for why FoF is considered a damage gain in our rotation).

And that's why FoF is in our AE rotation.

I've not a clue with your SEF question, but it's worth testing.

Moozhe · 03/04/13, 3:17 PM

I'm not understanding this logic behind multiple chances to crit making Fists of Fury better for multiple targets. For some classes or for some trinket procs critting more is a good thing but it does not interact in any special way with us.

I'll take your example of 99k damage per tick of Fists of Fury and 33k damage when split to 3 targets. Let's say you have a 50% chance to crit. Against a single target your ticks are going to hit for 99k half of the time and 198k the other half of the time for an average hit of 148.5k.

If you instead split the damage to 3 targets, each hit will deal 33k damage half of the time and 66k damage the other half of the time for an average of 49.5k damage per hit, or 148.5k average total damage of all 3 hits.

We don't have any procs that rely on crits so critting 3 times for 1/3 the damage has no advantage over critting once for full damage. Unless there is some internal hit-table related anomaly I'm not aware of.

Perhaps some of you came from classes that would benefit from more crits (Deep Wounds, Ignite?) and are trying to apply those rules here?

That being said, I certainly use FoF against 2 or 3 targets except for instances where 1 target takes more damage than the others, such as Garalon's legs or Wind Lord during Recklessness while an add is beside him.

Saltycracker · 03/04/13, 3:58 PM

Maybe add this to the 5.2 thread when it gets created.

Theorycrafting is showing that Haste and Mastery are going to be worth more than half the value of Agility. While this may not affect how we enchant, this will change the way we gem our gear. Typically item budgets on gear are diminished if the item has a gem slot, and usually this is taken from the primary stats. If we are going to start stacking haste/mastery gems, this may mean we are going to look for gear with the most gem sockets possible in order to make use of this strategy.

For example, the two pieces which I consider the weakest of the tier are the gloves and shoulders, as both have crit. The gloves have one socket, while the shoulders have two sockets. For me the deciding factor is that I can put more gems into the shoulders than the gloves, and on a per stat point basis, increase my damage optimally by doing this.

Something to keep in mind when comparing two pieces of gear. Probably not a huge deal considering every slot covers the rainbow in terms of stat combinations.

Dopameany · 03/04/13, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by Moozhe

I'm not understanding this logic behind multiple chances to crit making Fists of Fury better for multiple targets. For some classes or for some trinket procs critting more is a good thing but it does not interact in any special way with us.

I'll take your example of 99k damage per tick of Fists of Fury and 33k damage when split to 3 targets. Let's say you have a 50% chance to crit. Against a single target your ticks are going to hit for 99k half of the time and 198k the other half of the time for an average hit of 148.5k.

If you instead split the damage to 3 targets, each hit will deal 33k damage half of the time and 66k damage the other half of the time for an average of 49.5k damage per hit, or 148.5k average total damage of all 3 hits.

We don't have any procs that rely on crits so critting 3 times for 1/3 the damage has no advantage over critting once for full damage. Unless there is some internal hit-table related anomaly I'm not aware of.

Perhaps some of you came from classes that would benefit from more crits (Deep Wounds, Ignite?) and are trying to apply those rules here?

That being said, I certainly use FoF against 2 or 3 targets except for instances where 1 target takes more damage than the others, such as Garalon's legs or Wind Lord during Recklessness while an add is beside him.

No, you and Janx are right. I was thinking since FoF is limited duration cast increasing the number of crits in that finite duration would matter somehow, like smoothing out the damage over the course of multiple FoF casts during a fight, but you're both correct - it wont.

Another matter worth discussing is, I asked a while ago about FoF snap-shotting stats, and was told here that it does not. Where did this come from? I just did target dummy testing today with both an AGI proc (off bottle), and berserking (seperate tests). Here are the results (for the agi test, I took off my weps and terror trinket as to not get interfering procs):

BERSERKING ENTIRE TIME
3/4 16:04:22.225 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopame an",0x511,0x0,26297,"Berserking",0x1,BUFF
3/4 16:04:22.225 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x8 0000000,0x80000000,26297,"Berserking",0x1
3/4 16:04:26.826 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopame an",0x511,0x0,113656,"Fists of Fury",0x1,BUFF **********
3/4 16:04:26.826 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x8 0000000,0x80000000,113656,"Fists of Fury",0x1
3/4 16:04:26.926 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0xF131063700003EAF,"Traini ng Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,120086,"Fists of Fury",0x1,DEBUFF
3/4 16:04:29.707 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopame an",0x511,0x0,113656,"Fists of Fury",0x1,BUFF **********
3/4 16:04:30.938 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0xF131063700003EAF,"Traini ng Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,120086,"Fists of Fury",0x1,DEBUFF
(Total Time = 29.707 - 26.826 = 2.881 seconds - very close to tooltip during buff)

NORMAL UNBUFFED FOF CAST
3/4 16:33:20.897 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopame an",0x511,0x0,113656,"Fists of Fury",0x1,BUFF *********
3/4 16:33:20.897 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x8 0000000,0x80000000,113656,"Fists of Fury",0x1
3/4 16:33:20.997 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0xF131063700003EAF,"Traini ng Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,120086,"Fists of Fury",0x1,DEBUFF
3/4 16:33:24.387 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopame an",0x511,0x0,113656,"Fists of Fury",0x1,BUFF *********
3/4 16:33:24.987 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0xF131063700003EAF,"Traini ng Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,120086,"Fists of Fury",0x1,DEBUFF
(Total Time = 24.387 - 20.897 = 3.49 seconds - very close to tooltip)

BERSERKING CLICKED OFF IMMEDIATELY AFTER FOF CAST
3/4 16:37:24.053 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopame an",0x511,0x0,26297,"Berserking",0x1,BUFF
3/4 16:37:24.053 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x8 0000000,0x80000000,26297,"Berserking",0x1
3/4 16:37:25.583 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopame an",0x511,0x0,113656,"Fists of Fury",0x1,BUFF ********
3/4 16:37:25.583 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x8 0000000,0x80000000,113656,"Fists of Fury",0x1
3/4 16:37:26.003 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0xF131063700003EAF,"Traini ng Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,120086,"Fists of Fury",0x1,DEBUFF
3/4 16:37:26.003 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopame an",0x511,0x0,26297,"Berserking",0x1,BUFF
3/4 16:37:28.524 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopame an",0x511,0x0,113656,"Fists of Fury",0x1,BUFF ********
3/4 16:37:30.014 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0xF131063700003EAF,"Traini ng Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,120086,"Fists of Fury",0x1,DEBUFF
(Total Time = 28.524 - 25.583 = 2.941)

AGI TRINKET PROC CLICKED OFF
3/4 16:44:07.178 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopame an",0x511,0x0,126554,"Agile",0x1,BUFF
3/4 16:44:12.698 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopame an",0x511,0x0,113656,"Fists of Fury",0x1,BUFF
3/4 16:44:12.698 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x8 0000000,0x80000000,113656,"Fists of Fury",0x1
3/4 16:44:12.928 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0xF131063700003EAF,"Traini ng Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,120086,"Fists of Fury",0x1,DEBUFF
3/4 16:44:12.928 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0xF131063700003EAF,"Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,117418,"Fists of Fury",0x1,44724,44723,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
3/4 16:44:13.588 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0xF131063700003EAF,"Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,117418,"Fists of Fury",0x1,21711,21710,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
3/4 16:44:14.589 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0xF131063700003EAF,"Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,117418,"Fists of Fury",0x1,44724,44723,1,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
3/4 16:44:15.209 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopame an",0x511,0x0,126554,"Agile",0x1,BUFF
3/4 16:44:15.319 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0xF131063700003EAF,"Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,117418,"Fists of Fury",0x1,21711,21710,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
3/4 16:44:16.189 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopame an",0x511,0x0,113656,"Fists of Fury",0x1,BUFF
3/4 16:44:16.489 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0xF131063700003EAF,"Training Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,117418,"Fists of Fury",0x1,21711,21710,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
3/4 16:44:16.929 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0200000006AC8306,"Dopamean",0x511,0x0,0xF131063700003EAF,"Traini ng Dummy",0x10a28,0x0,120086,"Fists of Fury",0x1,DEBUFF

This really looks like snapshotting to me, unless I'm missing something.

Dopameany · 03/04/13, 5:08 PM

Originally Posted by tastysnack

Dopamein: it's 4+ targets. Theoretically you can use it on 3 and generate the Chi, but mathematically it's 4+ targets required for an increase.

Where did that come from? Here's what I have from my in-game tooltips.

Jab on average hits for 14683
RSK on average hits for 125455
BOK on average hits for 69698

SCK on average hits for 17130, with a 3 hits, over 2 seconds.

Take a 6-second window (assuming TP is up):

Jab -> RSK -> Jab -> BOK -> Jab -> BOK = 3x 14683 + 2x 69698 + 125455 = 308900 dmg

RSK over 6 seconds is 3 casts of ticks each = 3 * 3 * 17130 = 154170 PER TARGET

At two targets, you're looking at 308340 SCK DMG Vs. 308900 ST DMG -> Breaking Exactly Even

Three would be a huge increase.

What did I miss?

tastysnack · 03/04/13, 5:18 PM

Did you factor in that Jab grants 2 chi per gcd while SCK only grants one per cast? Granted, I could see using a cancel aura for SCK after its initial hit and recasting it for the same amount of Chi and possibly more damage. Its worth looking into, but at the moment I don't have the means to math it.

Bemxuu · 03/04/13, 5:21 PM

We changed RealPPM to use your true melee haste or spell haste (whichever is higher) to scale the proc rate instead of attack speed or casting speed. The difference is that things that buff your attack speed (such as the raid buff or Slice and Dice) do not increase the frequency of RPPM procs. True haste boosts, such as Bloodlust or haste rating on gear will improve proc rate. We felt this change was necessary to balance proc rates among different specs.

Goodbye, Tiger Strikes and Way of the Monk buffing our trinket proc rate!

Saltycracker · 03/04/13, 5:42 PM

Originally Posted by Bemxuu

Goodbye, Tiger Strikes and Way of the Monk buffing our trinket proc rate!

Capacitive Primal Diamond – 21.00 base RealPPM on landing melee/ranged abilities and swings. No ICD.
- At 5 stacks, fires a Lightning Strike, which deals [280 + 75% AP] Nature damage. This is considered a ranged attack for Hunters, and a melee attack for everyone else.
- Base proc rate is multiplied by an additional coefficient:
Assassination: 1.089
Combat: 1.232
Subtlety: 0.388
Feral: 2.397
Windwalker: 0.495
Beast Mastery: 0.960
Marksmanship: 0.984
Survival: 0.714
Enhancement: 0.266
Retribution: 1.199
Frost DK (2H): 2.098
Frost DK (DW): 1.479
Unholy: 0.639
Arms: 1.783
Fury (TG): 0.944
Fury (SMF): 0.596
Anyone Else: 1.000

This is what floored me. I'm tempted to napkin this out and see if the legendary meta still beats our current one. I'm guessing the legendary will still outperform the old.