[WW] 5.2 -Enter the Fist - Page 30

Saltycracker · 03/19/13, 4:00 PM

ZenMed signifigantly reduces damage from Static Shock:

Log query - 17-03 20:13 - Something Wicked - World of Logs

[{"spellNames": ["Zen Meditation"]}, {"spellNames": ["Static Shock"]}, {"spellNames": ["Anti-Magic Zone"]}]

Saltycracker · 03/19/13, 4:21 PM

Originally Posted by Kraun

I see a lot of players who do really great damage switching to mastery in the 6+k while crit is in the 3k range. Simcraft shows crit to still be the superior stat at about 1.5 to 1 crit to mastery. it basically shows the stats should be reveresed. Is this another simcraftism or is it 6 or a half dozen which is better or what is the deal?

Thanks!

I don't think Simcraft is valuing crit correctly.

Crit and Mastery are pretty even in value, but they are used differently. If you want to "set it and forget it" reforge to crit. If you want to be more bursty, reforge to mastery.

Generally the more skill a player has, they more they favor mastery due to timing of procs and encounter mechanics. If you don't have WeakAuras setup for tracking your trinkets, you probably want to go with crit. They are both good stats, but do different things depending on your playstyle.

Kraun · 03/19/13, 5:50 PM

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

I don't think Simcraft is valuing crit correctly.

Crit and Mastery are pretty even in value, but they are used differently. If you want to "set it and forget it" reforge to crit. If you want to be more bursty, reforge to mastery.

Generally the more skill a player has, they more they favor mastery due to timing of procs and encounter mechanics. If you don't have WeakAuras setup for tracking your trinkets, you probably want to go with crit. They are both good stats, but do different things depending on your playstyle.

Thanks for the info! I'll mess with the triggers for tigereye_brew to align it more closely to my cooldowns to see if that doesn't fix the issue.

saboya · 03/19/13, 9:02 PM

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

ZenMed signifigantly reduces damage from Static Shock:

Log query - 17-03 20:13 - Something Wicked - World of Logs

[{"spellNames": ["Zen Meditation"]}, {"spellNames": ["Static Shock"]}, {"spellNames": ["Anti-Magic Zone"]}]

Is this the query you made?

Expression Editor - 17-03 20:13 - Something Wicked - World of Logs

Saltycracker · 03/19/13, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by saboya

Is this the query you made?

Expression Editor - 17-03 20:13 - Something Wicked - World of Logs

Yes.

Justicemonk · 03/20/13, 5:02 AM

Zen Meditation is a 90% personal damage reduction, it'll significantly reduce the damage of almost anything.

It's a shame Static Shock wasn't a single-target spell, otherwise that you might've been able to absorb some hits for your guildies.

Photek · 03/20/13, 3:56 PM

Originally Posted by Justicemonk

Zen Meditation is a 90% personal damage reduction, it'll significantly reduce the damage of almost anything.

It's a shame Static Shock wasn't a single-target spell, otherwise that you might've been able to absorb some hits for your guildies.

Well, we can soak an entire Static Shock if casted on us though.

Justicemonk · 03/20/13, 8:25 PM

Aye, many classes have the ability to solo soak a Static Shock.

keithioapc · 03/21/13, 2:22 PM

NM I'm an idiot lol.

Konata · 03/21/13, 2:49 PM

Originally Posted by keithioapc

So I was skeptical about tiger strike damage as it was reported in WoL.

I checked a log of mine for Megaera ( Damage Done - 20-03 21:23 - Encore - World of Logs ).

It said I had 80 tiger strike hits/crits/etc under "damage by spell". I checked how many times I gained the tiger strike buff and it said 31 under "buffs gained".

You would think 31 buff gains would give 124 hits, not 80.

Then I went to the log browser and saw how many times I actually hit with tiger strikes. It was showing 166. Now that's too many for 31 buff gains. It turned out that when it procced when I already had it the buff gain wasn't showing up in the log. I actually had 42 buff gains.

Clearly 166 hits is a lot more than the 80 WoL was showing.

I added up all damage from the hits in the log browser. Ignoring the overkill and the blocked damage, the sum was 5,057,485. WoL on the other hand said I did 1,540,066.

I am confused as to why WoL is showing tiger strikes damage being so much less than it ought to be. Is it including it in melee damage?

I turned to SimCraft to see what it had to say about all this. The fight was 462 seconds long so I modelled a 450 second fight with 0 variance. Simulationcraft had my tigerstrikes damage at 4,528,350. That seems to reflect the number I calculated. In WoL it says melee hits were 21.3% of my dps, and in SimC it says they were 23.5%. That means that it seems unlikely that the extra tiger strike damage was being put under melee in WoL.

Tiger strikes should do about 7.5% of a monk's DPS on a single target fight. However if you look at WoL, you will generally see it doing much less. If you manually add up the damage it did by looking at the actual log like I did, you will come to a different number than WoL reports.

I am curious if anyone else has noticed tiger strikes not being correct in WoL.

Unless I'm crazy it seems like WoL is underreprestenting our tiger strikes damage, which will lead people to erroneous conclusions on the state of windwalker class balance.

UPDATE - I noticed something! When you look at your damage on the damage done page that includes everyone and mouseover me to see the little report about me, it says I did 3.7M with tiger strikes! And it has my damage as being correspondingly higher than when you click me individually and look at my damage by spell page. However 3.7M that is reported there is still less than the 5M I calculated from the log browser. Something wonky is definitely afoot here.

I see 3.7 Mil Probably from your MH and 1.5 from your OH tiger strikes, and they add up to 166 hits including misses/blocked.

keithioapc · 03/21/13, 2:51 PM

@Konata Yep I'm an idiot, thanks. For some reason I didn't see the MH hits listed separately and was ignoring them.

Saltycracker · 03/21/13, 5:02 PM

After doing a couple weeks of progression since 5.2, I think I have figured out the general strategy of how WW should be played in order to be effective in a progression setting, and that is timing our use of Tigereye Brew appropriately. TEB stacks well with other damage increasing buffs/debuffs, and that is the time we should be using them; absent these, there are portions of fights where heavy burst is needed and portions where we have downtime. In general I am trying to build TEB stacks up during downtime phases, and use them when burst or bonus damage is needed.

Using Jin’rokh as an example, you should be building your stacks when the puddles are not up (beginning and during lightning storm), and spending your stacks when you have puddles available in order to maximize your DPS (in addtion to other cooldowns, and lucky trinket procs).

Given this new playstyle, I’m taking another look at Fists of Fury and debating whether it’s still a DPS increase. Before, we looked at it in terms of Damage/use or Damage/Chi and it came out as a gain in comparison to the BOK and melee damage that you substituted for it. With the changes in 5.2, spending chi is the name of the game in order to maximize your TEB stacks. In this perspective FOF is not very effective for use in a raid setting, as it does not generate TEB stacks as effectively as using those GCDs on BOKs.

Example:
Assuming ~14% haste Fists of Fury cast time is about 3.5 seconds/GCDs. A FOF cast spends 3 chi, so you are generating 1 TEB stack in those 3.5 seconds. You could also spend that chi (and a combo breaker proc) on 3 Blackout Kicks in roughly the same amount of time and generate 2 stacks of TEB. On this basis, dropping Fists of Fury is giving you more TEB stacks to use during crucial phases of an encounter.

Assume Fists of Fury does 430,000 damage and BOK does 115,000 damage.

On a chi basis, fists of fury will do more damage, but on a GCD basis, BOK will come out slightly behind but will provide more melee damage and will provide more benefit via mastery when an encounter demands it.

Based on this I think monks should be stacking more haste and drop FOF from their rotations so that we can be more effective for the more crucial periods of encounters.

Proudmoore · 03/21/13, 8:02 PM

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

Example:
Assuming ~14% haste Fists of Fury cast time is about 3.5 seconds/GCDs. A FOF cast spends 3 chi, so you are generating 1 TEB stack in those 3.5 seconds. You could also spend that chi (and a combo breaker proc) on 3 Blackout Kicks in roughly the same amount of time and generate 2 stacks of TEB. On this basis, dropping Fists of Fury is giving you more TEB stacks to use during crucial phases of an encounter.

Assume Fists of Fury does 430,000 damage and BOK does 115,000 damage.

On a chi basis, fists of fury will do more damage, but on a GCD basis, BOK will come out slightly behind but will provide more melee damage and will provide more benefit via mastery when an encounter demands it.

But until you've got ~20% haste, your TEB generation is only locally dependent on chi_used/sec. The global dependence is energy/sec, with a maximum burst of TEB stacks production assuming 5 chi and 80+energ pooled of ~5 stacks over ~10gcds - at which point you're down to starvation levels of energy.

Conceivably, you might want to zerg a few more stacks to fit in another Brew before, e.g., Bloodlust finishes, but that's a relatively niche case - it's not likely to come up very often, (makes dramatic assumptions about your current resources) and it makes no difference to total TEB stacks gained over the whole fight. Whether you spend those chi over 4 seconds, or over 6 seconds, you'll still have used and spent, e.g., 250 chi over the whole fight.

By comparison, increasing the damage per chi, that can make a difference over the whole fight (e.g., using FoF 6 times instead of 4), is surely of greater importance? With those numbers, FoF does 2.5 times as much damage per chi, and, due to a linear cooldown, does make a difference. Resources are fluid (unless you have insane energy levels), and thus can be carried forwards in time.

Professor Hurt · 03/21/13, 9:00 PM

Originally Posted by Proudmoore

But until you've got ~20% haste, your TEB generation is only locally dependent on chi_used/sec. The global dependence is energy/sec, with a maximum burst of TEB stacks production assuming 5 chi and 80+energ pooled of ~5 stacks over ~10gcds - at which point you're down to starvation levels of energy.

Conceivably, you might want to zerg a few more stacks to fit in another Brew before, e.g., Bloodlust finishes, but that's a relatively niche case - it's not likely to come up very often, (makes dramatic assumptions about your current resources) and it makes no difference to total TEB stacks gained over the whole fight. Whether you spend those chi over 4 seconds, or over 6 seconds, you'll still have used and spent, e.g., 250 chi over the whole fight.

By comparison, increasing the damage per chi, that can make a difference over the whole fight (e.g., using FoF 6 times instead of 4), is surely of greater importance? With those numbers, FoF does 2.5 times as much damage per chi, and, due to a linear cooldown, does make a difference. Resources are fluid (unless you have insane energy levels), and thus can be carried forwards in time.

Exactly.

To put it another way, in a case where all resources are being used (there is no energy or chi capping happening), it's better to use FoF than not because the amount of resources being used is the same but the total damage done is higher.

The question(s) then become: how much haste does it take to make up for the loss in damage when removing FoF from the rotation? By adding this amount of haste, can you still use all resources without capping?

If the answer is "an achievable amount of haste" and "yes", respectively, then it's worth swapping FoF for this magical amount of haste.

Saltycracker · 03/22/13, 1:30 AM

Originally Posted by Proudmoore

Conceivably, you might want to zerg a few more stacks to fit in another Brew before, e.g., Bloodlust finishes, but that's a relatively niche case - it's not likely to come up very often, (makes dramatic assumptions about your current resources) and it makes no difference to total TEB stacks gained over the whole fight. Whether you spend those chi over 4 seconds, or over 6 seconds, you'll still have used and spent, e.g., 250 chi over the whole fight.

The question(s) then become: how much haste does it take to make up for the loss in damage when removing FoF from the rotation? By adding this amount of haste, can you still use all resources without capping?

If the answer is "an achievable amount of haste" and "yes", respectively, then it's worth swapping FoF for this magical amount of haste.

I think you both are agreeing with me, and I think what you both said is correct. I'm not sure though.

I agree that your chi generation/spending rate is variable during the fight and may be higher in some portions and lower in others, but it's ultimately tied to your energy generation rate through jab. My argument is that stacking haste past the resource break even point, fists of fury becomes less and less useful. Not only because it's value diminishes due to high movement fights, but on a straight numbers basis it works out to being better to intentionally gear haste past this point and phase Fists of Fury out of your rotation.

I've calculated this breakpoint to be at about 24% using SimC ability usage:

No Tier Bonuses
58 Total GCD/min (being a human):
14.26 Energy/sec
22.76 Jab/min
3.00 Tiger Palm /min (2.76 GCD/min from Combo Breaker and .24 GCD/min from chi)
6.68 Rising Sun Kick/min
5.20 Fists of Fury GCD/min
2.74 BOK/TP Combo Breaker /min
13.61 Hard Cast BOK/min
3.39 Chi Wave/min
.33 GCD/min Xuen

This all goes away once you get a Rune of Re-origination, but without one, haste stacking may be the way to go.