[WW] 5.2 -Enter the Fist - Page 5

Crevan · 01/07/13, 6:52 AM

Originally Posted by gahddo

- The abundance of TEB stacks means keeping a 100% (94-96% realistic) uptime is the best way to go

A few quick runs I did show this as well. Patchwerk fight dps seems to peak when using TEB at 4-6 stacks. Using it at lower stacks increases the uptime slightly, but not the dps.

One thing that occurred to me yesterday was that the new tigereye implementation will require us to track any mastery bonuses we get from gear procs or fight mechanics. Right now, if we were to use a trinket with a mastery proc or Windsong on weapons, when we get the mastery buff it sort of passively benefits us. In 5.2, a mastery buff will do absolutely nothing if we don't hit TEB when it's up. This is probably worth mentioning in the guide.

EDIT: I'm also not seeing FoF as a dps loss for dw, but I'm still using my 5.1 stat priority (haste=crit and minimal mastery) and using TEB at 5 stacks instead of pushing for max uptime. Will have to play around with it a bit more I guess.

tastysnack · 01/07/13, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Crevan

One thing that occurred to me yesterday was that the new tigereye implementation will require us to track any mastery bonuses we get from gear procs or fight mechanics. Right now, if we were to use a trinket with a mastery proc or Windsong on weapons, when we get the mastery buff it sort of passively benefits us. In 5.2, a mastery buff will do absolutely nothing if we don't hit TEB when it's up. This is probably worth mentioning in the guide.

EDIT: I'm also not seeing FoF as a dps loss for dw, but I'm still using my 5.1 stat priority (haste=crit and minimal mastery) and using TEB at 5 stacks instead of pushing for max uptime. Will have to play around with it a bit more I guess.

Agreed. Once I am a little bit less sleep deprived (oh, Monday...), I'll see about adding in some emphasis on tracking mastery procs. I'll add some notes about FoF as well - it's a much debated topic even now - but it sounds like it'll be less damage and more utility (though, given that short stuns rarely work on bosses or their trash, I can't even see it as utility unless Blizz decides to somehow increase its damage). I don't want to commit to anything about FoF this early on (as I have the feeling that may change since Blue seems to want the spell to be in our rotation since beta), but I think adding notes about it is fine at this point.

I'd assume that tracking mastery on weapons would not be advised, as most are going to be using Dancing Steel (I assume), unless Windsong is now our strongest enchantment?

Littch · 01/07/13, 12:22 PM

Sorry i have been away from this thread for quite a while, did i read this correctly.

we are to go back to Haste > crit or even Haste=crit for DW and not use FoF?

Also Ghaddo, any chance you could link the dps difference from different races please, so unsure what's top at the moment. Would you able to include Panda @ 275 food as well if possible.

tastysnack · 01/07/13, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Littch

Sorry i have been away from this thread for quite a while, did i read this correctly.

we are to go back to Haste > crit or even Haste=crit for DW and not use FoF?

Also Ghaddo, any chance you could link the dps difference from different races please, so unsure what's top at the moment. Would you able to include Panda @ 275 food as well if possible.

If you look at the guide draft (which I still need to add to the main page), and click on Stat Prioritization, I'm trying to keep track of where our priorities appear to be in 5.2. Right now for DW, it's Haste > Mastery > Haste > Crit, but keep in mind that that's bound to change.

Littch · 01/07/13, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by tastysnack

If you look at the guide draft (which I still need to add to the main page), and click on Stat Prioritization, I'm trying to keep track of where our priorities appear to be in 5.2. Right now for DW, it's Haste > Mastery > Haste > Crit, but keep in mind that that's bound to change.

I was more on about in 5.1 still. I was checking around other top monks and seems they are not Crit > Haste any more.

tastysnack · 01/07/13, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Littch

I was more on about in 5.1 still. I was checking around other top monks and seems they are not Crit > Haste any more.

Who are you looking at specifically? Many of the ones I know are Crit >= Haste, or Crit > Haste. The ones I've seen that are Crit >= Haste or Crit > Haste are also sitting in BrM spec (which values haste more than WW).

The only other thing I can think of is that it is mathematically true that 1 haste (rating) > 1 crit (rating) due to 425 haste (rating) = 1% haste while 600 crit (rating) = 1% crit, causing it to appear that haste > crit (if that makes sense - I'm pretty sleep deprived right now)

Saltycracker · 01/07/13, 1:01 PM

I'm seeing Mastery > Haste regardless of DW/2H in my spreadsheet for 5.2. Why is there a soft haste cap for DW around 8k haste?

@Litt It would probably depend on your energy needs for certain fights. If you weren't using FOF (Heroic Protectors for example) you would need more energy and therefore need more haste. Those top monks are also probably sitting on a lot less mastery than a typical monk, so their needs for haste are higher. I know I will probably be picking up some haste pretty soon with a couple more upgrades.

Littch · 01/07/13, 1:08 PM

I was mainly looking at Justmonk. But i would presume then since hes got flat out Haste > Crit that its for his brew master spec. i probably just over thought it after reading the last few pages of this thread. never mind

Eyedore · 01/07/13, 1:18 PM

Originally Posted by Kiræl

Calli, I believe that Siimcraft is using FoF on multitargets simply due to the fact that each "tick" on each target has a separate chance to crit, this would be a slight gain I would think given how much damage it does in addition to the stun.

I think I am missing something here, but how does that increase it's dps on multiple targets? If you have 40% crit chance and you use FoF on 10 targets, then every tick will crit 4 of them, and normal hit 6, right? Isn't this the same as with every other ability, you crit 4 out of 10 times?

As I said, I'm probably overlooking something here

Eeinx · 01/07/13, 1:19 PM

For those worried about 5.1 values, keep in mind there was a couple bugs that got fixed that may have skewed values. Everything should be fixed and giving the correct scaling now. I'm going over the module someday soon to determine everything is sound and nothing looks funky. (checking PTR logs to simc for accurate ability damage etc)

Salty: The soft cap (for 5.2) for DW was before we removed FOF from the mix.

We'll mention things from time to time about 5.2 over realid or here in the forums, but keep in mind this can change every day as the profiles and module are updated.

When we are talking about stat weights for 5.2, it's generally in BiS or BiS +8ilvl. Or at least at that gear level so we really haven't ironed out if there is a specific amount of haste we need before stacking mastery in a no-FoF scenario.

But you're on your mark (for 5.1) with the less mastery, the more haste is beneficial.

Originally Posted by Eyedore

I think I am missing something here, but how does that increase it's dps on multiple targets? If you have 40% crit chance and you use FoF on 10 targets, then every tick will crit 4 of them, and normal hit 6, right? Isn't this the same as with every other ability, you crit 4 out of 10 times?

As I said, I'm probably overlooking something here

Yea, over the course of the fight, in a high iteration standard deviation, you'd probably still run about 40% being crits.

We dont really run multitarget sims as Windwalker yet. If you are, be careful and ask questions if something looks funny because I haven't really done a lot of work implementing aoe.

---------

One day, i'll play windwalker.

tastysnack · 01/07/13, 1:35 PM

Originally Posted by Eeinx

Salty: The soft cap (for 5.2) for DW was before we removed FOF from the mix.

But you're on your mark (for 5.1) with the less mastery, the more haste is beneficial.

OK. High values of haste caused me to think FoF would eventually fall off as it is. I think I'm going to need to add a To-Do section into the draft to keep track of things like this (as it stands, it's only half of the guide anyway - I started working on it at 2 AM and apparently fell asleep partway through stat prioritization).

Originally Posted by Eeinx

Yea, over the course of the fight, in a high iteration standard deviation, you'd probably still run about 40% being crits.

We dont really run multitarget sims as Windwalker yet. If you are, be careful and ask questions if something looks funny because I haven't really done a lot of work implementing aoe.

---------

One day, i'll play windwalker.

Good to know.

Edit: I'll try to bother you over RID more, as more information is discovered. That way, I can update drafts as needed. Thanks for your work.

Eeinx · 01/07/13, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by tastysnack

Edit: I'll try to bother you over RID more, as more information is discovered. That way, I can update drafts as needed. Thanks for your work.

Feel free to send me Cat Facts in exchange for WW info.

tastysnack · 01/07/13, 1:59 PM

I've another thing.

What about T14 bonuses? 4P - with Ascension and a higher value of haste, it seems like this would fall off the chart as an increase - it seems like gearing for it would be a waste vs. 2nd stats. Same with the 2Set - since FoF appears to be falling off of our rotation, it appears that gearing for haste/mastery would be preferable. I can also see breaking the set bonus early on, too, in favor of T15 gear and simply ignoring them.

Seems strange and uncouth to me

But then again, this is the first tier where I haven't placed much emphasis on gaining a set bonus.

Eeinx · 01/07/13, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by tastysnack

I've another thing.

What about T14 bonuses? 4P - with Ascension and a higher value of haste, it seems like this would fall off the chart as an increase - it seems like gearing for it would be a waste vs. 2nd stats. Same with the 2Set - since FoF appears to be falling off of our rotation, it appears that gearing for haste/mastery would be preferable. I can also see breaking the set bonus early on, too, in favor of T15 gear and simply ignoring them.

Seems strange and uncouth to me

But then again, this is the first tier where I haven't placed much emphasis on gaining a set bonus.

This is actually a really good observation. I might spend some time today building a new bis that favors mastery if chardev is working.

EDIT: chardev is still broken. I think Mrrobot has some new features I might try out. :x

I'm trying to figure out some additional details, because i've been running weights that want a good amount of either stat when going full reforge and gearing of the opposite stat. Maybe I just dont have the most optimized profile from gahhda yet, but i'll mess around with it tonight after i'm home.

Saltycracker · 01/07/13, 5:28 PM

I don't see why Fists of Fury is "falling out" of our rotation.

-It is our 2nd largest Damage Per Chi ability; it does more damage than 1.5 BOK and auto attack and tiger strike damage.
-You regenerate energy during the channel
-It scales positively with mastery, haste and crit.

With the mastery changes in 5.2 we will have more gaps in our rotation that can easily be filled with FoF.