[WW] 5.2 -Enter the Fist - Page 8

Moozhe · 01/10/13, 1:35 PM

Originally Posted by Professor Hurt

Some questions about SEF:

Assuming the tooltip is correct (and that I'm reading it correctly) it's a 20% DPS increase, right? So we go from 100% DPS to 120% DPS split between all involved parties (either 60/60 with one summon, or 40/40/40 with two)? If so, why would we ever NOT have this up?

Are the summons controllable, such that you can tell them to attack a different target after the initial choice has been made? If not, I'm guessing this would be the only time/reason we'd ever hit the SEF button again (to unsummon/resummon).

I've tested this on the PTR.

It is a cleave ability. However, it's actually more accurately described as a "multidot". This is because they are not restricted to melee range, so we are the only melee spec who can benefit from this damage increase on fights like Will of the Emperor (when other melee can not cleave).

Your spirits will not mirror your single-target abilities if you are targeting the same mob that your spirit is. So on single-target patchwerk fights you will NOT use Storm, Earth, and Fire.

You would use spirits like this:

- 1 spirit on Stone Guards
- None on Feng
- None on Gara'jal
- 1 on Heroic Spirit Kings (sometimes)
- 1 or sometimes 2 on Elegon (depending on phase)
- 1 on Will (sometimes 2 maybe for Strengths)
- 1 on Vizier Heroic
- None on Blade Lord
- 1 or 2 on Garalon
- 2 on Wind Lord (except for the end of the fight)
- 1 on Amber-Shaper (during phase 2)
- 1 or 2 on Empress
- Sometimes 1 on Protectors
- None on Tsulong
- None on Lei Shi
- 1 or 2 on Sha of Fear

If you look at sites like raidbots you'd see that the fights where we'd use Storm, Earth, and Fire on are fights where monks are typically very low compared to other classes. That's because we have no 2 or 3 target overall damage increase. That's the entire reason they created this ability.

The only odd thing right now is that there is no benefit to using 2 spirits instead of 1 in PVE. The damage increase is the same (+20%). Most classes will do more damage vs 3 targets than than they would versus 2 targets. We may not ever bother to use 2 spirits. The only purpose I could see would be to put pressure on 3 targets in PVP or to extend the time you will be gaining the +20% bonus.

For example, let's say you are soloing 3 mobs who each have 10mil health. If you use 1 spirit to "cleave" 2 of those 3 mobs and you can do 100k DPS to a single target, then let's say you will do 120k DPS versus those 2 targets. It would take 166 seconds to kill the first two mobs. Then you would be doing 100k single-target DPS to the final mob and kill it in 100 seconds, for a net total of 266 seconds.

If you instead used two spirits and killed the mobs evenly, you would be doing 120k DPS for the entire time and you would kill all three mobs in 250 seconds. So using 2 spirits has the potential to gain 6-7% DPS in rare situations.

tastysnack · 01/10/13, 1:36 PM

Oneton: From what I've seen so far, they are still incredibly buggy. You can only have 1 up per target, and if you attack the target of one of them, they stop copying your specials (but will still auto attack and gain Tiger Strikes). They also appear to not be controllable and have pretty similar mechanics as Xuen in that regard.

It looks like they are an increase on target dummies right now, and are working as an effective cleave.

Overall, clunky but neat ability right now. Once I've had more time to play with PTR, I'll see about updating the 5.2 guide.

Edit: And Moozh stole my thunder. Great post, Moozh.

Moozhe · 01/10/13, 1:45 PM

There are going to be a lot of other considerations, like whether our Xuen damage is reduced when we summon a spirit, or whether our spirits will benefit from Tigereye Brew or other similar buffs. If they can't benefit from all of the same buffs that we do then it will diminish the damage bonus we get, to the point that we might only get a 10-15% increase. If this is the case then it would completely diminish the benefit of ever using 2 elementals.

Since right now there is no cooldown we could always despawn and respawn an elemental based upon our buffs (for example when we use Xuen or Tigereye Brew) if that became necessary.

As a side note, our elementals will currently autoattack (and gain Tiger Strikes) even if we are not attacking anything. So even against a single-target boss we could summon an elemental during times we have to run out with a debuff or during any mechanic that keeps us from performing our rotation on the boss.

And one more tidbit in case it's not clear: they don't mirror your damage directly, they mirror your abilities. If you RSK, they will RSK. You might crit, they might get dodged. All of their damaging abilities will show in your combat log as "Fire Spirit: Rising Sun Kick" or "Earth Spirit: Fists of Fury". Based on RNG your elemental can do more damage than you or less. It's not a strict mirror.

tastysnack · 01/10/13, 2:03 PM

Originally Posted by Moozhe

And one more tidbit in case it's not clear: they don't mirror your damage directly, they mirror your abilities. If you RSK, they will RSK. You might crit, they might get dodged. All of their damaging abilities will show in your combat log as "Fire Spirit: Rising Sun Kick" or "Earth Spirit: Fists of Fury". Based on RNG your elemental can do more damage than you or less. It's not a strict mirror.

When I write this section of the 5.2 guide, I'll be sure to underline and bold that (similar to how I am currently underlining and bolding the 2H vs. DW differences in it right now).

It also looks like Chi Wave is not contributing correctly with them - but I'm going to double-check my logs.

Originally Posted by Moozhe

There are going to be a lot of other considerations, like whether our Xuen damage is reduced when we summon a spirit, or whether our spirits will benefit from Tigereye Brew or other similar buffs. If they can't benefit from all of the same buffs that we do then it will diminish the damage bonus we get, to the point that we might only get a 10-15% increase. If this is the case then it would completely diminish the benefit of ever using 2 elementals.

Correct - especially if the bug(?) I noticed persists (where if you are attacking a Spirit's target, it stops copying abilities and only autoattacks/Tiger Strikes).

I also take back what I said about a cleave. The more I look at it, it's more of a DoT/multi DoT, especially on single-target where (as mentioned) it appears to only mirror if you are not attacking the same target.

gahddo · 01/10/13, 2:40 PM

Eein shouldn't have too much trouble implementing the set bonuses, if he ever finds time that is. Simc already has chi sphere in for power strikes and it more than likely functions the same way but with energy. The 4pc will alter weights a decent bit but not enough to skew them largely, at HIGH mastery levels, 13.7k achievable with +8 ilvl, its a 2.98% dps increase. However, without the t14 set bonuses activated and with the current changes from the last ptr patch, the weights went all sorts of insane. Doing some refined testing on it now.

-edit- So...about those weights...<.<. Looks as if the change from 2 to 3 chi/TEB stack dropped mastery down to a level equal to crit and brought haste up to well above either of them. Initially mastery was showing as worse than crit and when I raised the haste mastery went up to equal with crit, leading me to believe the interaction between haste and mastery increase the value of each other, duh. I expect there to be some threshold but I'm sitting at 11k haste right now and its still showing it as the dominant stat.

-edit2- I'm making an early prediction, based off of the current simc module which will be inspected thoroughly, that we're going to be stacking haste well into the upper levels of gear with mastery as a strong second stat with 4pc, at some point haste will drop out in favor of mastery due to energy capping issues.

Eyedore · 01/10/13, 7:52 PM

Originally Posted by tastysnack

Also, where are you getting 129K? What version of simc? All of the data I've seen from 5.2 have pointed us at much, much higher DPS values.

I used simc 510-9 that is downloadable from the simc website. As I said, it's 5.1 data (and dps) but that was all I could get. I just wanted to get some kind of indication for the 2-set bonus until we get better data

I can't think of anything that will change this 1.52% damage increase for 2p drastically though.

Originally Posted by gahddo

-edit- So...about those weights...<.<. Looks as if the change from 2 to 3 chi/TEB stack dropped mastery down to a level equal to crit and brought haste up to well above either of them. Initially mastery was showing as worse than crit and when I raised the haste mastery went up to equal with crit, leading me to believe the interaction between haste and mastery increase the value of each other, duh. I expect there to be some threshold but I'm sitting at 11k haste right now and its still showing it as the dominant stat.

-edit2- I'm making an early prediction, based off of the current simc module which will be inspected thoroughly, that we're going to be stacking haste well into the upper levels of gear with mastery as a strong second stat with 4pc, at some point haste will drop out in favor of mastery due to energy capping issues.

This is what I was guessing at too. But I'll stop speculating and try to wait patiently for the real data

tastysnack · 01/10/13, 8:57 PM

Originally Posted by Eyedore

I used simc 510-9 that is downloadable from the simc website. As I said, it's 5.1 data (and dps) but that was all I could get. I just wanted to get some kind of indication for the 2-set bonus until we get better data

I can't think of anything that will change this 1.52% damage increase for 2p drastically though.

That's why I asked - because our damage is going to be much higher than 129K after 5.2 if it goes live in the shape it's in right now.

Astrylian · 01/11/13, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by tastysnack

Correct - especially if the bug(?) I noticed persists (where if you are attacking a Spirit's target, it stops copying abilities and only autoattacks/Tiger Strikes).

Are you misunderstanding the ability? That's not a bug. It copies your abilities to other targets, not its own target.

Eyedore · 01/11/13, 6:27 AM

Blue post:

Storm, Earth, and Fire is a new ability for Windwalkers. It’s intended to be fill the role of attacking 2 or 3 targets. It’s a rather complex ability, technically, and you’re seeing a very early version of it that still has some significant bugs (which we’re hoping to hotfix soon). To give you an idea of the design intent here, the spirits should mirror your damaging attacks against targets other than the one they’re on (so that it’s not a single target DPS gain). The spirits auto attack on their own. It should reduce your and your spirits damage while they’re out, but the exact tuning for that is still being iterated on. They’re currently -40% for 1 (total of 120% of normal against 2 targets), and -55% for 2 (total of 135% against 3 targets). Non-damaging attacks (such as Spear Hand Strike) should not be mirrored, but damaging attacks (such as Fists of Fury) should. Feedback very appreciated.

Anatfo · 01/11/13, 8:46 AM

Originally Posted by Eyedore

Blue post:

[...] Non-damaging attacks (such as Spear Hand Strike) should not be mirrored, but damaging attacks (such as Fists of Fury) should. Feedback very appreciated.

Which makes me wonder: Do they copy, say, Flying serpent kick and/or Chi Torpedo? Not that I'd use Chi torpedo, but I can see using damaging mobile abilities work against you in a fight like Will of the Emperor if the clones do copy those as well.

Crevan · 01/11/13, 9:17 AM

FSK and chi torpedo are not copied.

Qalor · 01/11/13, 10:58 AM

Chi wave was copied. I was able to get a full healthbar out of using 1 chi wave with 2 spirits on dummies. I expect that will be nerfed before going live.

Vapes · 01/11/13, 12:45 PM

It's looking like 5.2 is going to means that Brewmaster and Windwalker gearing are going to have a high potential to be extremely similar. Getting pretty high haste and throwing mastery on. I was wondering if anyone had an idea where the two would diverge? I know there's some debate/preference on BM about expertise cap/mastery vs. haste for progress vs. farm.

Was just wondering if there was potentially a stat allocation where a set of gear might be able to fill both roles with a <5% loss in both dps/tanking. Seems more likely in 5.2 than 5.1.

Crevan · 01/11/13, 1:54 PM

The stat values are already similar enough between WW and BM. If you reach hit/exp caps (7.5% both) and have similar amounts of haste and crit, you're good to go as ether of the specs. Right now, mastery is only semi-important for tanks if something hits hard enough to two-shot you. I use my currently equipped gear for both dps and tanking, and it works fine.

Saltycracker · 01/12/13, 4:13 AM

Since they changed level 30 talents to cost no chi, you can't stack TEB pre fight with them anymore. Might be the time to beg your raid to start bringing punching bags to the raid if you want to keep this a thing

=(

Also, can anyone check and see if their mastery rating coefficient is the same from live to PTR? I'm seeing a coefficient of 3000 mastery/% right now on the PTR.