Elitist Jerks [WW] 5.3 -Enter the Fist

01/15/13, 1:45 PM   #151
Venyasure
Von Kaiser

Orc Death Knight

Sinstralis (EU)
 Originally Posted by Saltycracker IncDavg = (1+(m+1)%*TPCD) / (1+m%*TPCD)
That's it. You can implement it by modifying the V3 cell like i did in my previous message and the second "modified spreadsheet".

Now, it's time to use Maple calculations.

The following formulas are respectively :

- energy regenerated per second
- number of Jabs per second
- Chi generated per second (plus the Combo Breaker Chi)
- Tigereye Brew stacks gained per second
- Average number of stacks you're playing with throughout the fight
- damage multiplier from crit chance and Tigereye Brew. The first parenthesis is for crit chance (gained from agility and crit rating), the second one for Tigereye Brew.

Ok, now we have a formula calculating how crit and mastery increase overall damage. Let's calculate derivatives to get a scaling for both stats !

I'll assume 20k agi, 6k haste, 6k mastery and 6k crit

Crit scaling is a bit better than mastery.

We can also plot the formula depending on haste. We still have 6k mastery, 6k crit and 20k agi.

Mastery becomes better than crit if you have more than 9k5 haste.

Now we have 22k agi, 6k crit and 5k mastery :

Mastery becomes better than crit if you have more than 7982 haste. The haste breakpoint at which mastery becomes better will decrease the more Crit and Agi you have. And it increases the more mastery you yave.

But this is a calculation based on an average use of Tigereye Brew. The real efficiency of mastery will be better if you use Tigereye Brew with many stacks during your damage cooldowns or procs (like Dancing Steel or trinket procs), and it will be less good if you waste Chi when you cap your energy, when you Jab while you have a Combo Breaker proc, of if you use 2-Chi ablities while you have TP:CB proc which slows stack generation because of the bug described by Urotas in this message :
http://elitistjerks.com/f99/t131848-...9/#post2242174

Last edited by Venyasure : 01/15/13 at 8:39 PM.

 01/15/13, 4:23 PM #152 gahddo Von Kaiser   Gahhda Blood Elf Warlock   Burning Legion The numbers I posted where without any set bonuses, t14 or t15. CB:TP isn't an issue in the new rotation because, accounting for the strong value of mastery TEB stacks and the bug, CB:TP just moved to the top of the priority list.
01/15/13, 4:53 PM   #153
Saltycracker
Don Flamenco

Draenei Monk

Whisperwind
 Originally Posted by Venyasure But this is a calculation based on an average use of Tigereye Brew. The real efficiency of mastery will be better if you use Tigereye Brew with many stacks during your damage cooldowns or procs (like Dancing Steel or trinket procs)
My thoughts exactly. How you play dictates how good mastery is for you. If you can take advantage of the benifits of mastery, then it becomes more valuable; since TEB blanketing is the least efficient way to use mastery, it's value goes up if you synchronize it with trinket/enchant procs. If not, crit is a good alternative, and based on this analysis a very viable alternative.

01/15/13, 7:37 PM   #154
tastysnack
Kind of hates everything.

Pandaren Monk

Shattered Hand
 Originally Posted by Saltycracker My thoughts exactly. How you play dictates how good mastery is for you. If you can take advantage of the benifits of mastery, then it becomes more valuable; since TEB blanketing is the least efficient way to use mastery, it's value goes up if you synchronize it with trinket/enchant procs. If not, crit is a good alternative, and based on this analysis a very viable alternative.
Similar to how, currently, the better you play the better Haste is for you (to an extent). Noting that while the guideline offered to most windwalkers is 3.6-3.8K, while most top-end, top-parsing monks are settling at 10% or higher, translating to 4-4.5K. This, of course, given that I'd (perhaps falsely) assume most top-parsing monks have higher APM.

Here's my interpretation. Please correct me if they're incorrect. A few preliminary assumptions, based on Venya's data and off-top-of-head-numbers:

- Current tier BiS offers around 18K agi (depending upon gemming choices), and it is very easy to attain 7K crit - meaning, it ought to be very easy to attain 7-8K haste with current tier BiS pre-patch through reforging and different gear choices.

- At 9.5K haste with 20K agi and 6K crit, scaling becomes Master > Crit

- 6K of all 3 "interesting" stats, Crit begins to scale better than mastery

- 22K agi = much higher item level gear (ignoring again, gems and enchants, and pointing out that higher agility = higher item level), assuming again that current tier will offer us 17-20K, depending again upon gemming choices, gear upgrading, etc. Meaning, by end of T15, lower haste will be preferred, higher mastery will become a preference, similar to the change in 5.1. Additionally, it can be presumed that this may well come closer to middle of T15, due to current gear levels already offering primary stats close to 20K.
- This is to assume that crit/haste/mastery gems will not overtake hybrid or pure agility gems.

To apply theory/math to the actual game, now, this leads me to the assumption that with an item level of 500 (+/-2 item levels), Master > Haste. In addition, it appears that Crit will be a very strong stat for choosing specific gear, in order to attain the higher crit requirement in order to swap the two priorities (noting that 1 Agi = 1/1200 of 1% crit, and the fact that the numbers referenced (22k agility) would translate to ~9% of Crit, making the requirement of 6K crit attainable with extremely minimal effort).

Also - is that taking into account the requirement of 3 Chi for 1 stack, or 2 Chi per stack?

Last edited by tastysnack : 01/16/13 at 12:21 PM.

Calligraphy, Windwalker/Brewmaster of <Post Mortem>
Watch me raid Sun-Thursday 8:30-11:30 PST at my stream. We're sitting at 9/13 HM!

01/15/13, 8:39 PM   #155
Venyasure
Von Kaiser

Orc Death Knight

Sinstralis (EU)
 Originally Posted by tastysnack - At 9.5K haste with 20K agi and 6K crit, scaling becomes Master > Haste
Hum, i suppose you're referring to my first graph. I'm sorry i didn't make this more clear, but the plot compares the scaling for mastery and crit, not mastery and haste. When i say "Mastery becomes better if you have more than 9k5 haste", i mean "Mastery becomes better than crit if you have more than 9k5 haste". Not "better than haste". The scaling of haste compared to that of crit or mastery cannot be determined by the formulas in my message. They're just about comparing crit and mastery.
I'll edit my message to make it more clear.
 - 6K of all 3 "interesting" stats, Crit begins to scale better than all three
Once again, i wrote "Crit scaling is a bit better" after the second picture, and i meant "Crit scaling is a bit better than mastery".
 Also - is that taking into account the requirement of 3 Chi for 1 stack, or 2 Chi per stack?
My calculations and Saltycracker's spreadsheet are made with 3 Chi per stack.

 01/16/13, 12:04 PM #156 Crevan Don Flamenco   Crevan Gnome Rogue   Darksorrow (EU) I've had some free time on my hands today, and decided to write a WeakAura showing the time left before your energy reaches its maximum. It's a simple colour-coded text indicator showing seconds until your energy bar fills. Currently, it's set up to be:green if the time is greater than FoF cast time + 1; orange if the time is between 2 seconds and FoF cast time + 1; red if the time is less than 2 seconds. FoF cast time is calculated based on your current melee haste. The aura checks if EB is active and accounts for that. I don't know yet how useful this will turn out to be, or if there's any addons out there that already do this. But have a go at it if you're interested and tell me what you think. Any feedback or bug reports appreciated. Pastebin - use the Raw Paste Data to import the string. Last edited by Crevan : 01/17/13 at 6:32 PM. Reason: replaced the string with a pastebin link
01/16/13, 12:23 PM   #157
tastysnack
Kind of hates everything.

Pandaren Monk

Shattered Hand
 Originally Posted by Venyasure Hum, i suppose you're referring to my first graph. I'm sorry i didn't make this more clear, but the plot compares the scaling for mastery and crit, not mastery and haste. When i say "Mastery becomes better if you have more than 9k5 haste", i mean "Mastery becomes better than crit if you have more than 9k5 haste". Not "better than haste". The scaling of haste compared to that of crit or mastery cannot be determined by the formulas in my message. They're just about comparing crit and mastery. I'll edit my message to make it more clear. Once again, i wrote "Crit scaling is a bit better" after the second picture, and i meant "Crit scaling is a bit better than mastery". My calculations and Saltycracker's spreadsheet are made with 3 Chi per stack.
Got it - I amended my post to reflect that. Keep it up - this is very helpful in putting to words the new stat weights.

I think in practice we'll probably use less haste - similar to right now - but especially with the 2P bonus. It seems like, overall, Crit > Mastery except at very high levels of haste (which I assume most people won't feel as comfortable at, except in a Patchwerk situation).

Calligraphy, Windwalker/Brewmaster of <Post Mortem>
Watch me raid Sun-Thursday 8:30-11:30 PST at my stream. We're sitting at 9/13 HM!

 01/16/13, 6:22 PM #158 Eyedore Von Kaiser   Alexsz Draenei Monk   Kul Tiras (EU) If I look at both my energy regen spreadsheets (for live and for 5.2), I think in 5.2 it is not too bad if we have more haste. Let's look at two setups: Both will use ascension, FoF, Energizing Brew on cd, and both will have their respective 2p and 4p bonus. 5.1: with 4000 haste, 1500 mastery and 2.5 FoF's your active time per minute would be 58.03 seconds. 5.2: with 9500 haste and 2 FoF's your active time per minute would be 56.07 seconds. If you would not use FoF in 5.2, you active time goes down to 52.54 seconds. Venyasure, maybe you could check with your formula what the haste breakpoint where mastery becomes better than crit is with 20k agi, 9500 haste, 6000 mastery and 2500 crit?
01/17/13, 10:48 AM   #159
Mihir
Piston Honda

Pandaren Monk

The Maelstrom (EU)
Originally Posted by Crevan
I've had some free time on my hands today, and decided to write a WeakAura showing the time left before your energy reaches its maximum. It's a simple colour-coded text indicator showing seconds until your energy bar fills. Currently, it's set up to be:
• green if the time is greater than FoF cast time + 1;
• orange if the time is between 2 seconds and FoF cast time + 1;
• red if the time is less than 2 seconds.
FoF cast time is calculated based on your current melee haste. The aura checks if EB is active and accounts for that.

I don't know yet how useful this will turn out to be, or if there's any addons out there that already do this. But have a go at it if you're interested and tell me what you think. Any feedback or bug reports appreciated.

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I'm doing something similar with Ovale.

01/17/13, 10:51 AM   #160
Mihir
Piston Honda

Pandaren Monk

The Maelstrom (EU)
 Originally Posted by tastysnack Similar to how, currently, the better you play the better Haste is for you (to an extent). Noting that while the guideline offered to most windwalkers is 3.6-3.8K, while most top-end, top-parsing monks are settling at 10% or higher, translating to 4-4.5K. This, of course, given that I'd (perhaps falsely) assume most top-parsing monks have higher APM.
I think the higher levels of haste on top-end monks has more to do with being unable to reforge away more haste. I'm unable to go below 5.3k haste at the moment for example, even tho I'd rather be at 4-4.5k.

01/17/13, 12:08 PM   #161
Vapes
Glass Joe

Pandaren Monk

Dunemaul
 Originally Posted by Mihir I think the higher levels of haste on top-end monks has more to do with being unable to reforge away more haste. I'm unable to go below 5.3k haste at the moment for example, even tho I'd rather be at 4-4.5k.
I guess it's easier to do a better rotation while not having to worry about energy capping? I've been trying to find a good feel for things, though I tank mainly so end up with a lot of haste on my gear. I love being able to hit something at all times, but I guess that vastly increases the chance that I don't hit something when I need to.

Do you happen to have any WoL parses? I'd just like something to compare against SimC to see how realistic it ends up being around your ilvl.

01/17/13, 12:35 PM   #162
Eyedore
Von Kaiser

Draenei Monk

Kul Tiras (EU)
 Originally Posted by Crevan I've had some free time on my hands today, and decided to write a WeakAura showing the time left before your energy reaches its maximum. It's a simple colour-coded text indicator showing seconds until your energy bar fills. Currently, it's set up to be:green if the time is greater than FoF cast time + 1; orange if the time is between 2 seconds and FoF cast time + 1; red if the time is less than 2 seconds. FoF cast time is calculated based on your current melee haste. The aura checks if EB is active and accounts for that. I don't know yet how useful this will turn out to be, or if there's any addons out there that already do this. But have a go at it if you're interested and tell me what you think. Any feedback or bug reports appreciated.

I'm very interested in this weakaura, but it is not working for me.
It gives this error when I paste the code into the import screen: "Error decompressing: Decompression error at 261/5636"
No aura will add when I press Done.
I'm not familiar with WeakAura's, but I don't think I did anything wrong.

I alllready have a 'request' , can you also look at the cooldown left on RSK? For example making the aura orange when cd left is between 2 seconds and FoF cast time + 1, and red when it's less than 2 seconds. And then so that the aura will take the 'reddest' color.

01/17/13, 1:06 PM   #163
Littch
Von Kaiser

Pandaren Monk

Kazzak (EU)
 Originally Posted by Eyedore I'm very interested in this weakaura, but it is not working for me. It gives this error when I paste the code into the import screen: "Error decompressing: Decompression error at 261/5636" No aura will add when I press Done. I'm not familiar with WeakAura's, but I don't think I did anything wrong. I alllready have a 'request' , can you also look at the cooldown left on RSK? For example making the aura orange when cd left is between 2 seconds and FoF cast time + 1, and red when it's less than 2 seconds. And then so that the aura will take the 'reddest' color.
I also have the same decompressing issue, but would be nice for the RSK tweak too.

Ecology - T14HC 16/16 - T15HC 11/13 - 10 man
Recruiting: Ele/Resto Shaman, Fury Warrior, Shadow Priest
http://ecology.enjin.com/
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 01/17/13, 2:19 PM #164 Crevan Don Flamenco   Crevan Gnome Rogue   Darksorrow (EU) I'll look into it later tonight. Might be that I didn't copy the string properly. EDIT: Try it now, the string was missing one letter at the end. EDIT 2: I've put the string on Pastebin. A fellow guildie had the same problem of it not importing, but he said copying the string from Raw Paste Data worked fine. Last edited by Crevan : 01/17/13 at 5:14 PM.
01/17/13, 4:22 PM   #165
LightforgedUS
Glass Joe

Orc Monk

Daggerspine
 Originally Posted by Crevan I'll look into it later tonight. Might be that I didn't copy the string properly. EDIT: Try it now, the string was missing one letter at the end.
Still getting the decompression error. Just as a heads up.

 Elitist Jerks [WW] 5.3 -Enter the Fist