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Old 02/19/13, 1:03 PM   #226
lairpie
Don Flamenco
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Sargeras
GC said that they felt the trinket was a little under powered, particularly for specs that value the stats fairly evenly and aren't really doing anything special just because it procs. He said though that they felt the trinket would be plenty good enough for many specs that would be able to do particular actions around the proc happening to game the value of the proc, like, exactly what we're discussing with it proccing, hitting TeB, then cancelling it. He almost seemed to be daring people to come up with the most interesting "creative use of game mechanics."

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Old 02/19/13, 1:08 PM   #227
Saltycracker
Don Flamenco
 
Draenei Monk
 
Whisperwind
So Crevan, those numbers are given that we don't /cancelaura the Reorigination trinket proc correct?

Regardless, the rune proc might be the best time to use energizing brew, as having 0 haste is incredibly slow, and would be hard to recover from if the trinket proceed in an energy valley:

/cast Tigereye Brew
/cancelaura Reorigination (or whatever)
/use Energizing Brew

Thanks for running the numbers, this trinket looks like a lot of fun and pretty potent if used optimally.

Twitter - @Saltyeric
Monk Windwalker Spreadsheet - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...sNVJSZlE#gid=6

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Old 02/19/13, 1:26 PM   #228
Kraun
Glass Joe
 
Troll Shaman
 
Ghostlands
Hey, I'm just moving into playing WW as I previously had been playing mostly brew. I have been tinkering with the stats in simulation craft and it seems for me the stat priorities don't seem to align with the OP.

The OP says haste to between 4 and 5k and then crit (summarizing, correct me if I'm wrong.) Simcraft for me shows even at 5k there is still waiting time which results in a net loss of DPS. I tried making sure I'm at 3k mastery and putting nothing into mastery. I tried 4.5k haste then going crit both ways, but again it resulted in a net DPS loss. The most DPS I could get out of simcraft was achieved by stacking heavy haste to the toon of 7+k even when it dropped my crit to the 33ish% range.

Outlying factors that might have an impact:
I'm using terror in the mists which has a crit proc.
my gear score is 489

Any thoughts on why for me still hasting over 5k seems to be the way to go according to simcraft (with my gear)?

for reference my char is pouljikhan of Alexstrasza

Last edited by Kraun : 02/19/13 at 2:05 PM.

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Old 02/19/13, 4:12 PM   #229
Crevan
Don Flamenco
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
So Crevan, those numbers are given that we don't /cancelaura the Reorigination trinket proc correct?
That is correct, yes. If we are able to cancelaura the buff, then we get the full 77% damage increase instead of 53.68%. And yes, EB during the proc would be very nice, but given the RPPM nature of the proc, we can't reliably predict when it will happen, so sitting on the cooldown until the trinket procs is probably not the best idea.


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Old 02/19/13, 4:38 PM   #230
LightforgedUS
Glass Joe
 
Orc Monk
 
Daggerspine
Originally Posted by Kraun View Post
Hey, I'm just moving into playing WW as I previously had been playing mostly brew. I have been tinkering with the stats in simulation craft and it seems for me the stat priorities don't seem to align with the OP.

The OP says haste to between 4 and 5k and then crit (summarizing, correct me if I'm wrong.) Simcraft for me shows even at 5k there is still waiting time which results in a net loss of DPS. I tried making sure I'm at 3k mastery and putting nothing into mastery. I tried 4.5k haste then going crit both ways, but again it resulted in a net DPS loss. The most DPS I could get out of simcraft was achieved by stacking heavy haste to the toon of 7+k even when it dropped my crit to the 33ish% range.

Outlying factors that might have an impact:
I'm using terror in the mists which has a crit proc.
my gear score is 489

Any thoughts on why for me still hasting over 5k seems to be the way to go according to simcraft (with my gear)?

for reference my char is pouljikhan of Alexstrasza
This is a common issue with Simcraft; Simcraft is a robot, and by extension has perfect reaction time, meaning it can handle way more haste than you can. 5-6k is the point where your regen (with Ascension) neither overwhelms nor starves you. It's a subjective thing, play around, see what feels right.

For reference, in 5.0, Fists of Fury was incorrectly scaling with Spell Haste, reducing the channel time without giving us the same amount of ticks, because of how FoF worked mechanically. The point where it would take a tick away was a little north of 7k (spell) haste which at least I got used to working with, and has been the norm since its fix in 5.1.

Chiforged WW Monk

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Old 02/19/13, 8:49 PM   #231
Crevan
Don Flamenco
 
Gnome Rogue
 
Darksorrow (EU)
Just like Ghostcrawler promised, the Rune of Re-origination is now purchasable from Flaskataur for all your testing needs.

First of all, it's not possible to click off the buff you get from the proc, just as we suspected. Once it it's up, you're stuck with it for 20 seconds.

Now, about "it being up". It was expected that the RPPM nature of the proc will make it quite unpredictable in terms of when you get the buff, but I'm not sure a lot of players will be prepared for this. I've spent about half an hour on a target dummy testing various stuff about it. Sometimes it would take more than a minute from combat start to get the first proc. Sometimes I would get 3 chain procs right after I start attacking. I once went way over 5 minutes without a proc. Now, not getting a single proc for what is pretty much an entire boss fight duration is bad enough, but getting 3 procs when you still don't have any TEB stacks generated might be even worse since ironically, 3 procs in a row at the start of the fight is actually a huge dps loss.

That being said, when the stars align and you actually get a proc at a decent time, it does feel like a boost to your dps. This trinket would force any user to hover at a higher-end of their resources (for us monks, that'd mean spending chi at 4+ and hitting TEB at 16+ stacks) to have a buffer to start using the proc as soon as it appears. Since TEB buff does not update dynamically, hitting it once at the beginning of the Re-origination proc and once more right before its end would be a good idea. As was suggested before, having Energizing Brew available for the proc is really nice, and I expect that t15 2p bonus will also be very helpful (though it's either disabled or bugged in this PTR build, haven't seen a single orb in 30 minutes; forgot to check if t15 4p was working correctly since it wasn't at all in the last build).

If I had to sum this trinket in one phrase, it'd be "very good when you're lucky, frustrating-to-terrible when you're not". The way it is right now, I very much doubt that I'd use it on progression content where I want consistency over a small possibility of awesomeness. On farm, it might be a neat way of trying to get ranked on bosses.

PS Everything we've discussed so far assumed that we're going for mastery as our highest stat. It's generally considered that haste stacking is not a good option for us, but perhaps it's worth investigating just for completeness' sake. If we did go for haste stacking, we'd probably have to drop Ascension for Power Strikes to try to keep the energy in check. At 8500 rating, which is what we'd get in 5.2 BiS, we'd have 12 e/s passive regen, and each Re-origination proc would give us a mini-heroism/bloodlust, bumping the regen to something like 14.5 e/s.

PPS With the same 5.2 BiS, Crit as highest stat would give us around 17.5% extra crit chance on a Re-origination proc. I'll try to do some calculations for both crit and haste stacking to get an idea if it's at all worth it.

Last edited by Crevan : 02/19/13 at 9:09 PM.


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Old 02/20/13, 1:40 AM   #232
Saltycracker
Don Flamenco
 
Draenei Monk
 
Whisperwind
Crevan, with the change to Combo Breaker I'm seeing haste as our best stat with a fairly high soft cap with a Haste-Mastery breakpoint of about 23.5% or about 10,000 haste rating. Mastery does become more valuable as you get more haste, but it doesn't overtake it until you GCD cap (Assuming a human rate of 58GCDs/min). At least from what I'm seeing haste looks to be the best stat this tier.

Hold up, doing some math. Haste and Mastery look about even until about 18-20% haste (7700 rating) and then mastery breaks ahead. This depends on tier bonuses, and how you use EB.

With regards to the trinket, it might be best to stack haste as trickles down where you can build up your TEB stacks in a short period of time, and then use them burst style when the effect wears off.

Last edited by Saltycracker : 02/20/13 at 3:05 AM.

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Monk Windwalker Spreadsheet - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...sNVJSZlE#gid=6

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Old 02/20/13, 2:10 AM   #233
Vishiz
Glass Joe
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Kel'Thuzad
you can not click off the re-origination buff on the ptr currently.

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Old 02/20/13, 3:17 AM   #234
Mihir
Piston Honda
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
The Maelstrom (EU)
Originally Posted by Crevan View Post
going from the previous point, we'll be working with 4368 haste rating, 7465 crit rating and 3469 mastery rating (this is what Mihir from ScrubBusters has);
Keep in mind that I'm currently gemmed for agility, while in 5.2 I will probably be gemming haste or mastery instead. So the amount of secondary stats available will go up quite a bit. On the ptr (with 5T15 and Rune equipped) I nearly reached 20k mastery when it procced:


Last edited by Mihir : 02/20/13 at 3:26 AM.

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Old 02/20/13, 3:41 AM   #235
tastysnack
Kind of hates everything.
 
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Pandaren Monk
 
Shattered Hand
Originally Posted by Kraun View Post
Any thoughts on why for me still hasting over 5k seems to be the way to go according to simcraft (with my gear)?
As per the OP, 425 poitns of haste are required for 1% haste, while 600 points of crit are required for 1% crit. That's why SimCraft shows a stronger weight for each point of haste rather crit. However, you will find yourself more comfortable at 4-5K haste.

@Mihir did you notice any drop in your numbers and haste, etc? We should have a base 10 energy/s, so while our energy regen will slow to a crawl it shouldn't absolutely stop. The only issue I can foresee is losing that amount of crit, given that crit is multiplicative.

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Watch me raid Sun-Thursday 8:30-11:30 PST at my stream. We're sitting at 9/13 HM!

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Old 02/20/13, 11:56 AM   #236
Kraun
Glass Joe
 
Troll Shaman
 
Ghostlands
Thanks lightforged and tasty!

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Old 02/20/13, 12:41 PM   #237
Caltiom
Von Kaiser
 
Human Priest
 
Eredar (EU)
Originally Posted by LightforgedUS View Post
This is a common issue with Simcraft; Simcraft is a robot, and by extension has perfect reaction time, meaning it can handle way more haste than you can. 5-6k is the point where your regen (with Ascension) neither overwhelms nor starves you. It's a subjective thing, play around, see what feels right.
SimulationCraft is a robot, sure. But it has very very poor random reaction time and it therefore can usually handle haste much worse than a good player can. There are settings to make the reaction system more optimistic if you want that, but by default it is pretty pessimistic.

Source:
sc_player.cpp - simulationcraft - World of Warcraft DPS Simulator - Google Project Hosting
sc_player.cpp - simulationcraft - World of Warcraft DPS Simulator - Google Project Hosting
( In effect that leads to mean reaction time of 0.65s )

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Old 02/20/13, 11:02 PM   #238
Bemxuu
Von Kaiser
 
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Troll Druid
 
Ясеневый лес (EU)
Changes to Rune of Re-Origination
Click Here ← Click Here
Rune of Re-Origination

We're going to make some changes to this trinket based on testing and feedback. Our goal was to make it decent if you didn't game it at all but offer some opportunities for enhanced benefits if you did. We're going to try to meet that goal better with these changes:

- 10 sec duration (down from 20 sec) but with double the proc rate.
- Increase your highest secondary stat by 200% of the sum of your two lowest secondary stats. For example: you have 3500 mastery, 5000 crit, 7000 haste. Rune procs, and you get [-3500 mastery, -5000 crit, +17000 haste]. Same logic as before, just double the size of the buff to your highest stat.

With these changes it might be more beneficial to use TEB at the end of the buff to benefit from both insane TEB buff as well as haste and crit chances.

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Old 02/21/13, 3:05 AM   #239
Vishiz
Glass Joe
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Kel'Thuzad
yeah Bem, thats exactly what i was thinking. I was already using my second stack at the end of the long proc anyway. This just makes it so you dont have time to get two off unless you basically already have a 15ish stack and use it instantly. Then put the new one up with <1s remaining. giving you ~24s of the super TEB.

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Old 02/21/13, 4:03 AM   #240
Saltycracker
Don Flamenco
 
Draenei Monk
 
Whisperwind
It also sounds like we need to keep our other stats as even as possible to get the most benefit from the trinket, which could be another major caveat to using it in addition to its proc clumsiness.

Last edited by Saltycracker : 02/21/13 at 12:17 PM.

Twitter - @Saltyeric
Monk Windwalker Spreadsheet - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...sNVJSZlE#gid=6

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