[WW] 5.3 -Enter the Fist - Page 24

Littch · 03/09/13, 4:25 PM

So best way to deal with it in NM gear then would to go haste 7k > Mastery > crit. if your gemming secondary stats you can easily get over 7k mastery. Or should we go like 7k Haste > 7.1k mastery > crit?

Saltycracker · 03/09/13, 4:34 PM

Originally Posted by Eeinx

Initial haste value is around 7k for perfect play and no movement I believe, then crit, then mastery, then haste for filler.

Yes, gemming agillity/crit split after 7k haste, because the value of crit isn't at least half that of agility.

Do you men agi/haste instead of agi/crit? Crit has nowhere near the value of haste under the 7k haste cap.

Mastery and crit are pretty close in value in my spreadsheet with mastery being worth slightly more, and I'm assuming a peanut butter spread of TEB. If you timed TEB with trinket procs and encounter mechanics, the value of mastery would be higher.

@Eyedore I rechecked my math, and yes you are right, but the difference is very minor. It only make sense to gem haste if you can't get it from reforging your stats on gear. Right now I am gemming haste because my Reforgelite addon barfs trying to balance caps on 3 secondary stats.

As a general note, I think that the best way to use our TEB stacks is not to hold them until you have more than 10 stacks, unless you have a very good reason to do so. Our damage relies more on smart TEB usage in order to stay competitive than in 5.1 and we are much more bursty than we were. The overall damage you do does not depend on how many stacks you use the TEB buff, so timing is everything if monks are going to play competitively. Don't sit on your stacks, use them.

Personally I have Weak Auras setup for when my trinkets proc and if I see one go, I'll automatically pop TEB, unless I am saving them up for a burn, or an AOE burst. Pay attention to encounter mechanics, and plan out before hand the best time to use them. This is now our biggest tool in our toolbox.

Littch · 03/09/13, 4:49 PM

Generally I have had the most success with holding onto stacks if trinkets are 40 - 45 seconds off, other than that the only time I will blow an under 10 stack is if everything lines up, ie both trinkets, double dancing steel ect. The only way I see doing this being a dps loss, is if you go past 10 for too long, say go up to 15, then have to burn a stack there at a bad point or to not use all of your stacks before the boss dies. We have plenty enough stuff to proc to line up with a 10 stack vs a lower stack on everything.

At the start of the fight its quite different though, i tend to get as many stacks as i can, then soon as my trinkets hit 15 seconds, I pop tiger eye

Hinalover · 03/09/13, 4:55 PM

Originally Posted by Eeinx

Initial haste value is around 7k for perfect play and no movement I believe, then crit, then mastery, then haste for filler.

Yes, gemming agillity/crit split after 7k haste, because the value of crit isn't at least half that of agility.

Based on my testing in SimC, the haste breakpoint seems closer to 6776 since that is when; with ascension; we have 13.33 energy regen. When evaluating haste in a plot setting, haste increases our dps by ~0.0035% every 200 rating up until that point. After that adding another 200 only increases our dps by .0019, then ~0.0023 after that. Meaning once we get past that 13.33 threshold, there is a noticeable drop in the value of haste.

Finally when working on that mod, keep in mind that some people will want to use Zen Sphere and Chi Burst so keep that in mind with the priority list.

Saltycracker · 03/09/13, 5:20 PM

Originally Posted by Hinalover

Based on my testing in SimC, the haste breakpoint seems closer to 6776 since that is when; with ascension; we have 13.33 energy regen. When evaluating haste in a plot setting, haste increases our dps by ~0.0035% every 200 rating up until that point. After that adding another 200 only increases our dps by .0019, then ~0.0023 after that. Meaning once we get past that 13.33 threshold, there is a noticeable drop in the value of haste.

Finally when working on that mod, keep in mind that some people will want to use Zen Sphere and Chi Burst so keep that in mind with the priority list.

I'm seeing the same thing, but there is another haste breakpoint at ~9350 haste where you use up all of your TP:CB procs, level 30 casts, and run out of GCDs. This gets us back into the territory of haste scaling we saw last patch where haste is good for robots and bad for people.

Eeinx · 03/09/13, 5:52 PM

Originally Posted by Hinalover

Based on my testing in SimC, the haste breakpoint seems closer to 6776 since that is when; with ascension; we have 13.33 energy regen. When evaluating haste in a plot setting, haste increases our dps by ~0.0035% every 200 rating up until that point. After that adding another 200 only increases our dps by .0019, then ~0.0023 after that. Meaning once we get past that 13.33 threshold, there is a noticeable drop in the value of haste.

Finally when working on that mod, keep in mind that some people will want to use Zen Sphere and Chi Burst so keep that in mind with the priority list.

I'll definitely keep it in mind. Although they will likely be in the same position in the priority. We can do an #a/b/c for talent selection if that's the case.

Edit:
I've gotten alot of fat trimmed off the original addon and i have tiger power and tiger strikes displaying in the uptime frame.
I'm disabling timers for now until I can figure out what timers are wanted in the addon.
Next in line is adding the abilities for the priority frame and removing the shaman abilities. Shouldn't take too long and i'll probably finish the priority frame tomorrow.

I dont want to overcomplicate it to start, but once new features are required, i'll add them as I go.

Ideally i'd like to start with a TEB timer and go from there.
I'm also looking at trying to get Chi displaying where maelstrom weapon stacks were.

opinel · 03/10/13, 3:57 AM

Eeinx, regarding your "priority list" addon, you might want to take a look at clcInfo_Monk : clcInfo_Monk - Buffs & Debuffs - World of Warcraft Addons - Curse

Rets have been using clcInfo for quite some time now, and their rotation is quite close to ours, so starting from there seemed like a good idea, Chi replacing Holy Power and whatnot.

Eeinx · 03/10/13, 4:41 AM

Originally Posted by opinel

Eeinx, regarding your "priority list" addon, you might want to take a look at clcInfo_Monk : clcInfo_Monk - Buffs & Debuffs - World of Warcraft Addons - Curse

Rets have been using clcInfo for quite some time now, and their rotation is quite close to ours, so starting from there seemed like a good idea, Chi replacing Holy Power and whatnot.

I tried CLC info: Monk but the priority is so complicated to change, it just doesn't offer the diversity like shock and awe.

Currently they are disregarding energy caps on FoF which is a big no no, and I felt that they dont really offer flexibility necessary for high paced priority changes that we may or may not see. It's great for a casual raider, but not for someone who needs to make changes alot.

The main complaint I have with CLC_info is that it doesn't update prior to the ability usage and it lowers your dps due to reaction rather than having a spell queued next in priority.

Saltycracker · 03/10/13, 12:16 PM

Crit vs. Mastery

It's easy to find out which stat you should use, as the math is very simple to calculate the stat weight of each.

Crit:

(1-((1.06 * (1.01+Crit%)) / (1.06  * (1+Crit%))) * DPS)/600

Mastery (assuming even spread of TEB stacks):

((Tigereye Brew stacks/min)/4)/100*DPS)/3000

where TEB/min is roughly 14.58 + .136*haste%

So, say I have 35.7% crit and 16.3% haste and I do roughly 100k DPS, I can find my stat weights:

Crit = ((1.06 * 1.367) / (1.06 * 1.357)-1) * 100,000) / 600
Crit = (1.00737-1)*100,000)/600
Crit = 1.22 DPS per crit rating

Mastery = (14.58 + (.136)(16.3)) / 4 / 100 * 100,000 / 3000
Mastery = 1.39 DPS per mastery rating

So, in this example stacking mastery yields more DPS.

Eyedore · 03/10/13, 1:39 PM

I think you made a mistake in the mastery calculation (1 that I made myself a couple of posts ago)
That 100,000 dps would be including 3.6% mastery (2.6% base + 1% from 3000 mastery buff)

Your formula:
Mastery = (14.58 + (.136)(16.3)) / 4 / 100 * 100,000 / 3000

the part before multiplying it by your dps:
(14.58 + (.136)(16.3)) / 4 / 100 = 0.041992

This would be the formula to get to the 100,000 dps:
realDps * (1+ 3.6 * 0.041992) = 100,000
realDPS = 86,868

Now we can use this realDps number to calculate how good mastery is:
0.041992 * 86,868 / 3000 = 1.2159

Note that if you allready have lets say 3000 mastery and you do the 100,000 dps as in this example, your realDps would be even lower and 1 mastery rating would be worth a bit less.

So in this example mastery and crit would be almost the same, in which case I would take mastery, because you can get more out of it by watching trinket procs and/or fight mechanics

Now I hope this is all correct, and for now I think it is, but please crrect me if I'm not

Eeinx · 03/10/13, 2:14 PM

Not to mention any contribution from xuen and stormlash needs to be removed.

Theres a lot of things to take into account. I think it could be possible to increase the value of mastery through a more complex profile that uses TEB on procs. In that case, it'd likely be somewhere closer to crit.

I need to go back through the sim so i can compare to live and figure out what is contributing from TEB and what is not in more detail.

Saltycracker · 03/10/13, 9:20 PM

Originally Posted by Eyedore

Now I hope this is all correct, and for now I think it is, but please crrect me if I'm not

True, but I use simcraft numbers with TEB commented out. I guess I forgot to mention this.

I do appreciate the double checking. I'll double check and make sure I'm not double dipping after raid tonight.

Bloodvalor · 03/10/13, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by Hinalover

Based on my testing in SimC, the haste breakpoint seems closer to 6776 since that is when; with ascension; we have 13.33 energy regen. When evaluating haste in a plot setting, haste increases our dps by ~0.0035% every 200 rating up until that point. After that adding another 200 only increases our dps by .0019, then ~0.0023 after that. Meaning once we get past that 13.33 threshold, there is a noticeable drop in the value of haste.

Finally when working on that mod, keep in mind that some people will want to use Zen Sphere and Chi Burst so keep that in mind with the priority list.

So does this mean that our haste soft cap is 6776 to match our energy regeneration needs with Ascension?

As far as Mastery and Crit every time I run simcraft or plug numbers into a spread sheet it shows Mastery=Crit , or maybe Mastery being better by like 0.1 which leads me to think Mastery is better if used intelligently.

Littch · 03/11/13, 4:48 AM

I would call 6776 haste the soft cap yes. i was doing some testing with it yesterday, seems a very nice haste to sit at, with proper use of FoF and EB i never felt energy starved. On movement fights like Lei Shen i just dropped FoF from the rotation and it was still fine.

on terms of Crit vs Mastery, as its been previously discussed, we are better off going Haste to 6776 then crit > mastery until we get RoRO unless the fight has some sort of damage increase modifier. I'm personally staying Crit > Mastery until that trinket drops. We still have a crap ton of crit on our gear and very little mastery if you itemized correctly last tier which has led me to this decision, if you have a lot more mastery on your gear then maybe mastery could be better for you.

Edit - another thing I need to ask, how is the damage on chi burst vs a black out kick? I saw some crits last night that were higher than a blackout kick, but did not have the time to fully test why

keithioapc · 03/11/13, 7:23 AM

I was testing Zen Sphere out last night on Durumu. I noticed something strange when I looked at the logs on WoL. The healing showed up, but the damage did not. I tried looking through the log browser for it and couldn't find damage anywhere. I found some logs from other people on Durumu who used Zen Sphere and also could not find them doing any damage either.

Not sure if the bug is with WoL or WoW, or what other fights are bugged. I did see some Tortos logs which properly showed Zen Sphere doing damage.