[WW] 5.3 -Enter the Fist - Page 25

saboya · 03/11/13, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Littch

I would call 6776 haste the soft cap yes. i was doing some testing with it yesterday, seems a very nice haste to sit at, with proper use of FoF and EB i never felt energy starved. On movement fights like Lei Shen i just dropped FoF from the rotation and it was still fine.

on terms of Crit vs Mastery, as its been previously discussed, we are better off going Haste to 6776 then crit > mastery until we get RoRO unless the fight has some sort of damage increase modifier. I'm personally staying Crit > Mastery until that trinket drops. We still have a crap ton of crit on our gear and very little mastery if you itemized correctly last tier which has led me to this decision, if you have a lot more mastery on your gear then maybe mastery could be better for you.

Edit - another thing I need to ask, how is the damage on chi burst vs a black out kick? I saw some crits last night that were higher than a blackout kick, but did not have the time to fully test why

That doesn't make sense. Mastery gets better the more Crit you have, so by continuing to prioritize Crit you are actually losing more DPS.

Crevan · 03/11/13, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Bloodvalor

So does this mean that our haste soft cap is 6776 to match our energy regeneration needs with Ascension?

The actual softcap on haste for us is when you regenerate 40 energy between jabs, provided you use up all the resources/procs generated by that initial jab straight away. On average, after one jab you will have 2 chi (enough for 1 BoK), plus you will have to do 0.12 TP and 0.12 BoK from combo breaker, for a total of 2.24 GCDs in this mini-cycle. With 13.33 energy regen, you will have 860 e/min, or 860/40 * 2.24 ~= 48 GCDs used for the above-mentioned jab-BoK-CBproc mini-cycles. Add 2 FoF channels at 3.5 seconds and 1 EB cast per minute, and you get 56 GCDs used per minute. The remaining 4 will be used up by t30 talents, interrupts, disarms, karma, human error or anything else, leaving the player completely GCD capped. Any more haste than that (or non-optimal play) and you'll be wasting resources. Dropping FoF from rotation can push the cap slightly higher, and depending on the amount of movement in a fight, might be worth it.

RE: Zen Sphere on Durumu. His huge hitbox might be the problem here. ZS deals damage to enemies within 10 yards on the affected player, but it is possible to stand more than 10 yards from his actual model and continue to be in melee range. Something like this has happened in the past with discipline priests on Ragnaros, when atonement heals' 15 yards range was not enough to reach anyone in need of healing. This might be a simple bug though. Need some testing to verify it.

Saltycracker · 03/11/13, 12:44 PM

Ok so Eyedore, now I remember why I'm gemming haste.

Power strikes is showing haste > agi pretty much all the time. For high movement fights (where I can't use FOF that often) I am switching to power strikes because it is a more mobile talent spec. In order to avoid regemming between Ascension and PS, I'm just sticking to all haste gems, even though it is a very very slight loss to do so for Ascension.

Movement:
Jin'rokh - Low
Horridon - High
Council - High
Tortos - High
Mageara - Low
JiKun - High
Durumu - Low
Primordius - High
Animus - Low
Iron Qon - Low
Twin Consorts - High
Lei Shen - High

With regards to Mastery vs Crit, my calculations are trying to calculate an incremental stat gain, where your calculations are calculating an absolute value of those stats relative to eachother. I'm more concerned about where to put that next point given my current gear snapshot.

I think both are valid ways to look at the comparison, but ultimately it's a gut check on how you are using mastery. If a player doesnt want to have to think about timing TEB, then crit is probably the way to go.

Once RoO enters the picture, it will be Ascension 100% of the time, but for now we can swap between the two talents with relative ease.

Eeinx · 03/11/13, 1:22 PM

Originally Posted by keithioapc

I was testing Zen Sphere out last night on Durumu. I noticed something strange when I looked at the logs on WoL. The healing showed up, but the damage did not. I tried looking through the log browser for it and couldn't find damage anywhere. I found some logs from other people on Durumu who used Zen Sphere and also could not find them doing any damage either.

Not sure if the bug is with WoL or WoW, or what other fights are bugged. I did see some Tortos logs which properly showed Zen Sphere doing damage.

Theres alot of problems with T30 talents right now. Same goes for the sim. For the t30 talents minus chi wave, i'm having to reverse engineer the damage because the spell data just doesn't match up with whats happening in game. Spinning crane kick is also messed up right now (more likely due to mh/oh high and low weapon damage calculation not working for some reason).

For spinning crane kick, i'm going to try and pull it off a tick base and make it into a direct aoe tick ability for a fix until we can get it working in a way similar to in game.

Eeinx · 03/11/13, 1:48 PM

I'm seeing gains since 5.2 launched.

SEF isn't a single target or cleave gain. I haven't tested spinning crane kick and its viability yet with the clones but it wont show up in skada/recount as your dps anyways until they fix it (if they haven't.

saboya · 03/11/13, 2:49 PM

Are you guys analyzing raw logs or parsed? I'm not aware of combat log changes this patch, but parsers may be innacurate because of it.

Eeinx · 03/11/13, 2:54 PM

Originally Posted by saboya

Are you guys analyzing raw logs or parsed? I'm not aware of combat log changes this patch, but parsers may be innacurate because of it.

Basically when I analyze an ability I run a parse for a period of time then check the low hit and high crit values. If they match whats happening in the sim, i'm usually satisfied. I'll check ability timestamps for things like FOF to make sure the ticks are happening with the right timing etc.

Other than that I use my eyes :P
I did some chopping and got SCK low damage accurate, but the high damage is about 4k too short. I didn't commit the change and will likely need to rewrite the code.

tastysnack · 03/11/13, 3:36 PM

Originally Posted by Eeinx

I'm seeing gains since 5.2 launched.

SEF isn't a single target or cleave gain. I haven't tested spinning crane kick and its viability yet with the clones but it wont show up in skada/recount as your dps anyways until they fix it (if they haven't.

Judging from my Skada last night, it appears to have been fixed - there weren't 50 different Calligraphies on my meter for a change. However - I don't believe WoL is fully tracking it properly (just a hunch). It's tracking the buff being cast, and the DPS recorded "looks" right, but when I do the math of my damage done (pulled from combat logs) and compare it to WoL, there's a (very) slight delta.

I ran this in expression editor after splitting it to a chunk on a certain fight (Horridon) where I knew I was testing SEF useage:

[22:11:48.634] Calligraphy gains Storm, Earth, and Fire from Calligraphy
[22:11:48.634] Calligraphy casts Storm, Earth, and Fire on Farraki Skirmisher
[22:11:48.857] Calligraphy's Tigereye Brew fades from Calligraphy
[22:11:49.793] Calligraphy gains Storm, Earth, and Fire (2) from Calligraphy
[22:11:49.793] Calligraphy casts Storm, Earth, and Fire on Farraki Wastewalker
[22:11:55.705] Calligraphy gains Tigereye Brew (3) from Calligraphy
[22:11:59.402] Calligraphy casts Blackout Kick on  Zandalari Dinomancer
[22:11:59.761] Calligraphy Blackout Kick  Zandalari Dinomancer 24922
[22:12:00.184]  Zandalari Dinomancer afflicted by Blackout Kick from Calligraphy
[22:12:01.131] Calligraphy Blackout Kick  Zandalari Dinomancer 1246
[22:12:02.196] Calligraphy Blackout Kick  Zandalari Dinomancer 1246
[22:12:03.176] Calligraphy Blackout Kick  Zandalari Dinomancer 1246
[22:12:04.227] Calligraphy Blackout Kick  Zandalari Dinomancer 1246
[22:12:04.227] Calligraphy's Blackout Kick fades from  Zandalari Dinomancer
[22:12:05.771] Calligraphy's Storm, Earth, and Fire (1) fades from Calligraphy
[22:12:11.118] Calligraphy gains Storm, Earth, and Fire (2) from Calligraphy

In other words, buggy ability is buggy. I grabbed a section where I had arbitrarily cast it on 2 adds (while focusing the Dinomancer myself). While I don't recommend this strategy for other WW - this was more to test the ability on the boss than it was to top charts and see how well it functioned in a 2-3 target scenario.

So, adds are grouped up, and I have 2 clones up - 1 on the Wastewalker and 1 on the Skirmisher. Note that they don't fade immediately - however, it's only tracking BoK on the Dinomancer (focused by me, NOT a clone). I did check Skada after that attempt - the clones were listed as having definitely copied my abilities, but notice that in this segment - and in others - it doesn't even list the clones as having done anything.

EDIT: By the way, here's the expression I used:

sourceName = "Calligraphy"
AND (spell = "Storm, Earth, and Fire"
OR spell = "Tigereye Brew"
OR spell = "Blackout Kick")

lairpie · 03/11/13, 4:02 PM

Just as a note, since people had mentioned who might be competing for the all important [Rune of Re-Origination], it might be worse than an empty trinket slot for brewmasters, and certainly worse than almost any alternative. If haste is your highest secondary, which it often is, more haste would just give you energy you can't spend. If mastery is your highest, you're already starving for chi and this would just make it worse for the duration of the proc.

Eeinx · 03/11/13, 4:06 PM

Originally Posted by lairpie

Just as a note, since people had mentioned who might be competing for the all important [Rune of Re-Origination], it might be worse than an empty trinket slot for brewmasters, and certainly worse than almost any alternative. If haste is your highest secondary, which it often is, more haste would just give you energy you can't spend. If mastery is your highest, you're already starving for chi and this would just make it worse for the duration of the proc.

Some clever usage nets this as the top parsing trinket. This is a non issue really as long as you can use the proc.

I would post your findings in the brewmaster thread instead of the WW one, being as this trinket is insane for windwalkers

gahddo · 03/11/13, 4:47 PM

Originally Posted by lairpie

Just as a note, since people had mentioned who might be competing for the all important [Rune of Re-Origination], it might be worse than an empty trinket slot for brewmasters, and certainly worse than almost any alternative. If haste is your highest secondary, which it often is, more haste would just give you energy you can't spend. If mastery is your highest, you're already starving for chi and this would just make it worse for the duration of the proc.

Bit of a derail, like eein said post in the brewmaster thread next time, but...Clever gearing methods for BrM make the trinket interesting as well. Theres a lot more secondary statistic on gear now, meaning you can maintain that comfortable level of haste for a brewmaster and get another stat above haste ontop of that, in this case going mastery. With mastery as the highest secondary, whenever the trinket procs its essentially a mini shield wall.

Nahela · 03/11/13, 5:35 PM

I've had very mixed results with SEF, unfortunately nothing seems to be logged with good accuracy as noted above. Sometimes they seem invincible, sometimes they get crunched in a second from seemingly nothing. Also worth noting that you shouldn't throw them at turtles on Tortos, as the shell remains attackable but immune once the turtle is dead, thus simply killing your own damage.

Moncoko · 03/11/13, 6:20 PM

Originally Posted by keithioapc

I was testing Zen Sphere out last night on Durumu. I noticed something strange when I looked at the logs on WoL. The healing showed up, but the damage did not. I tried looking through the log browser for it and couldn't find damage anywhere. I found some logs from other people on Durumu who used Zen Sphere and also could not find them doing any damage either.

Not sure if the bug is with WoL or WoW, or what other fights are bugged. I did see some Tortos logs which properly showed Zen Sphere doing damage.

Chi Wave also doesn't seem to be bouncing on most fights. I guess we should all be using Chi Burst for now until this gets figured out?

lairpie · 03/11/13, 6:44 PM

Originally Posted by gahddo

Bit of a derail, like eein said post in the brewmaster thread next time, but...Clever gearing methods for BrM make the trinket interesting as well. Theres a lot more secondary statistic on gear now, meaning you can maintain that comfortable level of haste for a brewmaster and get another stat above haste ontop of that, in this case going mastery. With mastery as the highest secondary, whenever the trinket procs its essentially a mini shield wall.

The point was someone had expressed that they'd probably be competing with tank monks for Rune, a windwalker concern, and I'm stating they should not have to worry about tanks taking it because it is terrible.

I've had very mixed results with SEF, unfortunately nothing seems to be logged with good accuracy as noted above. Sometimes they seem invincible, sometimes they get crunched in a second from seemingly nothing. Also worth noting that you shouldn't throw them at turtles on Tortos, as the shell remains attackable but immune once the turtle is dead, thus simply killing your own damage.

a macro

/cast [@mouseover,exists,harm] storm, earth, and fire; storm, earth, and fire

would let you create and despawn them by mousing over the shells, with it falling back to using your current target if you're not mousing over an enemy. This would let you spawn them on your first and second shell target while staying on the boss yourself. You'd certainly do more overall damage, and probably more shell damage than the melee trying to chase them around the room as pets are usually better than players at keeping up like that. Then when the first shell was low, mouseover the third and hit the macro, it should move your first clone to the third shell. Mouse over and hit it on the 2nd shell when it's low to despawn that clone, then the third shell when it's low to despawn that one. if you wanted it even easier, you could just focus a melee that is going to chase them and either use the above macro mousing over their focus target (rather than having to swing your camera around to mouseover them) or use this macro:

/cast [@focustarget,exists,harm] storm earth and fire; storm earth and fire

which will spawn a clone on your focus's target if it's an enemy.

Either of those, depending largely on how comfortable you are mousing over moving things on the screen seem both great for that fight, and useful in a number of fights. Sadly I rarely get to play windwalker so I won't be able to test it in a raid, but it seemed to work fine doing dailies, if being someone ridiculous to bother when you're going to immediately destroy the targets.

Crevan · 03/11/13, 8:12 PM

This isn't too relevant atm, but this Twitter exchange Ghostcrawler had with a few followers caught my eye:

Originally Posted by someone

I just find the explanations for this "10%" reduction a bit reduntant. But im a fighter and so is my monk!

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

It's not this simple, but imagine Fierce Tiger had a bug that made it do 10% more DPS than intended. The hotfix was to fix that.

Originally Posted by someone else

I mean, if you dropped the 10% change on a hotfix, it means you don't know a whole lot more than we do.

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

Please read the whole discussion. This change was to compensate for a bug, not a response to observed performance.

So, if the hotfix compensates for a certain bug that exists, but doesn't actually fix/remove it. Which means that there is something unintended that inflates our potential damage.

EDIT: After digging into Twitter conversations a bit more, it seems that the culprit here is the T30 - those talents were doing too much damage, and due to some error in the developers' testing procedures, they didn't catch it until the very last minute. Apparently, the talents were increasing our dps by about 10% too much, hence the 10% stance reduction.