[WW] 5.3 -Enter the Fist - Page 3

Venyasure · 01/04/13, 3:05 PM

Originally Posted by Taigong

Sorry if I am misinterpreting your math, but it looks like you have them the wrong way around, especially since common sense suggests that haste should be stronger than crit for autoattacks, as it requires less rating per %.

Oh dear, you're right. I've switched crit and haste in the final calculation. I've modified my message, now it should be ok, and autoattacks scale better with haste.

I too thought it was surprising, since it takes 425 rating to gain 1% haste, while it takes 600 rating for 1% crit. And since a simplified formula for autoattacks would look like
(1+haste)*(1+crit)*something
it's logical that haste is better than crit.

tastysnack · 01/04/13, 4:07 PM

Originally Posted by Venyasure

Oh dear, you're right. I've switched crit and haste in the final calculation. I've modified my message, now it should be ok, and autoattacks scale better with haste.

I too thought it was surprising, since it takes 425 rating to gain 1% haste, while it takes 600 rating for 1% crit. And since a simplified formula for autoattacks would look like
(1+haste)*(1+crit)*something
it's logical that haste is better than crit.

That does make sense - and outside of energy capping more easily, we DO still benefit from haste via increased attack speed. But, even so, most items are still going to have ~1-2% of either stat. For example, Shadow Heart Spaulders from Heroic Grand Empress have both haste and crit - 1.09% crit and 1.49% haste, that is, where .41% of the haste could be reforged into another stat (bringing the total haste down to 1.08%, thus roughly even with the amount of crit on them).

So I think what I'm trying to say is - it's easier to reach a higher % of haste than crit, so I do support the argument that 1 point of haste rating will be superior to 1 point of crit rating. However, I also still think that it is a legitimate strategy to favor a higher amount of critical strike than it is to favor a higher amount of haste. With reforging, it's very easy to pick up items with haste, and reforge them into another stat (exp, hit, crit, etc) - it seems like the lower value of 1 point of crit to 1 point of haste is designed to try to "balance" reforging (per se).

Plus... Playing with more than 10% haste feels like I'd be a cat on a hot tin roof - as it stands, too much energy and I could see myself easily GCD capping, especially with Lust/Heroism.

So the best way I can summarize it: It makes sense that 1 point haste rating > 1 point crit, but it seems that Blizzard has attempted to balance this through item design and reforging. While our attacks do benefit from haste, I can still see too much haste leading to energy/gcd capping - which I could foresee as being difficult to simulate.

I am open to being corrected if I've made any false assumptions - didn't exactly get enough sleep last night.

Saltycracker · 01/04/13, 4:46 PM

Melee swing damage is only a small part of the puzzle. Our auto attacks are the only portion of our damage that benefit more with haste than crit.

Haste converts to ability damage via Jabs, but the jab penalty is so great that it makes more sense (to me at least) to stack crit which increases the damage output of all your damaging abilities. Something I need to think about and model is that haste also increases your TEB stack rate, which increases your damage throughput.

From my spreadsheet, I'm seeing that we GCD cap at about 32% haste (Using EB on cooldown, 2 FoF/min). It will probably make sense to stack haste a little shy of the cap for contingency.This also assumes that your rotation is perfect, with no gaps and no wasted CB procs.

This may all be moot anyways, as I'm seeing mastery win out as the best green stat.

Eeinx · 01/04/13, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

From my spreadsheet, I'm seeing that we GCD cap at about 32% haste (Using EB on cooldown, 2 FoF/min). It will probably make sense to stack haste a little shy of the cap for contingency.This also assumes that your rotation is perfect, with no gaps and no wasted CB procs.

This may all be moot anyways, as I'm seeing mastery win out as the best green stat.

While having abilities like EB and FoF in the rotation, we're assuming that energy capping is a direct dps loss, but in the areas where the haste is still useful, it can potentially make up for the damage loss from capping in certain scenarios. For the times where you're not capping the bar might raise enough above crit to pass any losses during those capping moments.

I can't mathematically prove it but thats what it seems like.

Since Haste directly affects even the new mastery (by creating more chi to spend), it will likely lose its value once and IF you can keep up 100% TeB uptime.

We have alot of flexibility and I think our rotation will begin to change depending on how much secondaries we have to spend. For example saving cd's for TeB burns.
Since xuen isn't affected, teb cleaving with our new talent might be a dps gain if they are affected. If they aren't then we dont have to talk about it :P

Saltycracker · 01/04/13, 4:58 PM

I like that thought Eenix. It's a good buffer/feedback loop to think about and that very well be the case that what DPS you lose by energy capping is made up by TeB/Melee damage.

1 energy = 1/40 jab and 1/40 BoK roughly

100% TeB uptime is a dangerous tightrope to walk. It's a DPS loss to refresh TeB too soon. You also need ludicrous chi generation to get 100% uptime with 10 stacks of TeB.

Eeinx · 01/04/13, 5:10 PM

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

I like that thought Eenix. It's a good buffer/feedback loop to think about and that very well be the case that what DPS you lose by energy capping is made up by TeB/Melee damage.

1 energy = 1/40 jab and 1/40 BoK roughly

100% TeB uptime is a dangerous tightrope to walk. It's a DPS loss to refresh TeB too soon. You also need ludicrous chi generation to get 100% uptime with 10 stacks of TeB.

Yes.

You look at it like this:

You spend so much chi to get a full stack of teb
You need to much energy to generate that chi
and you need to have teb up during cd's

If you can effectively keep it up 100%, you're supporting your strongest stat (mastery) and all of your cd's, so after that point i can't see haste being as good as crit at all. It would probably be where you can get 100% uptime with EB is when where crit may overtake it just because of double damage from crits outweighing the wasted haste. Since haste and mastery have that interaction this could very well be the case late t15

It really just depends. we'll get to see that picture once I add the new mastery in simc this weekend.

Saltycracker · 01/04/13, 5:17 PM

100% TeB uptime seems like a DPS loss to me, more due to the fact that damage increasing buffs are multiplicative in nature, and I would rather use higher stacks of TeB when Dancing Steel/Trinket procs, Xuen, Potion, or Bloodlust. The mastery change accommodates this much more than before, and it's more effective to micromanage.

I mean, I'd rather pool 20 stacks of TeB for a part of the fight when I know we will be using lust, so that I have 30 seconds of max damage output + a little for the last 10 seconds.

edit: I almost think we should stack too much haste so that we can have enough resources to use RSK, FoF, and refresh TP when we need to instead of playing the minmaxing juggling game of not using the heavy hitters on CD.

Eeinx · 01/04/13, 5:31 PM

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

100% TeB uptime seems like a DPS loss to me, more due to the fact that damage increasing buffs are multiplicative in nature, and I would rather use higher stacks of TeB when Dancing Steel/Trinket procs, Xuen, Potion, or Bloodlust. The mastery change accommodates this much more than before, and it's more effective to micromanage.

I mean, I'd rather pool 20 stacks of TeB for a part of the fight when I know we will be using lust, so that I have 30 seconds of max damage output + a little for the last 10 seconds.

I agree, but it just depends on where that DPS loss begins to happen and if the benefit from tiger strikes and weapon haste still overtakes crit. Thats the hypothetical point we'll hopefully clearly see.

Not to mention theres always combo breaker so we'll have a small margin of error haunting us.

tastysnack · 01/04/13, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by Eeinx

While having abilities like EB and FoF in the rotation, we're assuming that energy capping is a direct dps loss, but in the areas where the haste is still useful, it can potentially make up for the damage loss from capping in certain scenarios. For the times where you're not capping the bar might raise enough above crit to pass any losses during those capping moments.

I believe that energy capping is a loss, but not a large loss. The way I approach it is energy cap vs. chi cap in theoreticals with theoretical numbers:

My BoK does 60K dps (let's say), and my Jab does 16K dps. If I'm at cap for both, then logically it would be better to use BoK rather than Jab, otherwise I'm losing around 40K.

So to me, it doesn't seem like as "much" of a loss to energy cap as one might think - and even then, I'd assume that a person with high enough skill wouldn't find themselves in this situation all too often (other than perhaps during BL and shortly before EB ends).

(Disclaimer: I know you know that, it's just how I consider it, I hope that makes sense.)

Originally Posted by Eeinx

Since Haste directly affects even the new mastery (by creating more chi to spend), it will likely lose its value once and IF you can keep up 100% TeB uptime.

We have alot of flexibility and I think our rotation will begin to change depending on how much secondaries we have to spend. For example saving cd's for TeB burns.
Since xuen isn't affected, teb cleaving with our new talent might be a dps gain if they are affected. If they aren't then we dont have to talk about it :P

I don't see why they wouldn't - but then, I can't imagine why Xuen doesn't benefit.

Keep in mind, too, that the new mastery will also have an effect on crit.

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

100% TeB uptime seems like a DPS loss to me, more due to the fact that damage increasing buffs are multiplicative in nature, and I would rather use higher stacks of TeB when Dancing Steel/Trinket procs, Xuen, Potion, or Bloodlust. The mastery change accommodates this much more than before, and it's more effective to micromanage.

I agree - but I am going to assume that this is based off of using TeB before it hits 10 stacks? Meaning - would a theoretical 100% uptime of 10 stacks of TeB still be a loss? Maybe I misinterpreted what you and Eeinx are saying.

Though, if you were sacrificing mastery/crit in order to achieve 100% uptime of 10 stacks, I could see that being a sizable loss.

Also - can't wait to see the results with the new mastery in SimC. My intent is to try to begin drafting an update prior to the launch of 5.2, so early results of what will work vs. what won't will be welcome.

Saltycracker · 01/04/13, 6:01 PM

Originally Posted by tastysnack

I agree - but I am going to assume that this is based off of using TeB before it hits 10 stacks? Meaning - would a theoretical 100% uptime of 10 stacks of TeB still be a loss? Maybe I misinterpreted what you and Eeinx are saying.

Though, if you were sacrificing mastery/crit in order to achieve 100% uptime of 10 stacks, I could see that being a sizable loss.

You need to spend 80 chi/min to have 100% 10 stacks uptime. So that's 40 jabs/min -> 160 energy/min -> 2.666 energy/sec -> 231% haste. Like I said, ludicrous amounts of haste. That's assuming you could even spend 80 chi/min with all those jabs.

Keep in mind that in 5.2 you can pool TeB to 20 stacks, but only spend 10 at a time. So, sitting at 20 stacks will be a DPS loss, instead of the 10 we have now.

In 5.2 let's say your average monk wants to keep TeB up 100% of the time. That means he needs to refresh it every 15 seconds. Your average monk probably spends 10 chi in that 15 seconds, so he would have a 5 stack TeB running all the time. This is possible, but won't produce the highest damage output. It would probably make more sense to use a 10 stack when a proc occurs, lust or Xuen because the damage output is multiplicative with the TeB buff.

tastysnack · 01/04/13, 6:29 PM

OK - thank you for clarifying, I now see where the problem exists (plus... I can't see myself wanting to use TeB at 5 stacks unless I did have a proc/lust/potion). And I agree - that's a loss for not pooling the stacks, but also a loss because I'd imagine that anyone with that amount of haste would be sacrificing other stats.

However, we should see a much higher uptime.

On that note: lawdy I hope I'm DW by then. More dancing steel procs with more TeB uptime? Those meters would be mine.

Also: it was my understanding that Xuen doesn't benefit from TeB. I'm not sure why it would be important to use him while the buff is active? Setting aside synchronizing him with procs/CDs.

Eeinx · 01/04/13, 6:52 PM

I don't see why they wouldn't - but then, I can't imagine why Xuen doesn't benefit.

Keep in mind, too, that the new mastery will also have an effect on crit.

But not a direct mechanical interaction, which is what i was going at :P

On a side note:
Serge @ simc updated all the windwalker stuff so i'm going over it now hahaha

Edit: Yup looked it over. Should be good. Gahddo is working on a profile now.
There was even a bug that caused TEB to give no bonus previously due to a stellar change someone ninja added. Free DPS!

gahddo · 01/04/13, 11:55 PM

I've started working on updating the action list to reflect the changes. Simulationcraft has a *functioning* 5.2 windwalker core, waiting for eein to pass over it and make sure its 100% thought.

The only thing that struck me to change was the TEB usage. It appears its now a gain to keep it up 100% regardless of stacks, primarily because in the 15 second interval between casts you're now generating 6.42 TEB stacks in the sim currently. (not optimally regeared yet). It was almost a 1k dps increase over using it at 10 stacks and not active or 20 and active (to prevent losing stacks passed 20 it was set to immediately use it at 20 regardless of duration).

Further refining the list before I post weights, but haste/mastery have a STRONG interaction now, and a bug was fixed in simc with regards to TEB that was present before the ptr patch. This means that more than likely the weights will end up being haste to a certain stable point then mastery with crit decently behind. Also, mastery is going to scale insanely well at higher weapon dps levels for obvious reasons.

-edit- Further testing has both haste and mastery over half the value of agility...YAY HASTE GEMS.

Eeinx · 01/05/13, 1:15 AM

Originally Posted by gahddo

I've started working on updating the action list to reflect the changes. Simulationcraft has a *functioning* 5.2 windwalker core, waiting for eein to pass over it and make sure its 100% thought.

The only thing that struck me to change was the TEB usage. It appears its now a gain to keep it up 100% regardless of stacks, primarily because in the 15 second interval between casts you're now generating 6.42 TEB stacks in the sim currently. (not optimally regeared yet). It was almost a 1k dps increase over using it at 10 stacks and not active or 20 and active (to prevent losing stacks passed 20 it was set to immediately use it at 20 regardless of duration).

Further refining the list before I post weights, but haste/mastery have a STRONG interaction now, and a bug was fixed in simc with regards to TEB that was present before the ptr patch. This means that more than likely the weights will end up being haste to a certain stable point then mastery with crit decently behind. Also, mastery is going to scale insanely well at higher weapon dps levels for obvious reasons.

-edit- Further testing has both haste and mastery over half the value of agility...YAY HASTE GEMS.

I did a tiny bit of testing, and i found at somewhere near 8.6k haste, mastery overtakes haste.
Probably varies depending on levels of agility (maybe)

We'll see.

Could also vary on the interaction of SEF and some other stuff that isn't in the profile yet.

Usernaem · 01/05/13, 2:09 AM

@tastysnack

I did extensive testing, if you want screenshots I have them, and have come to the conclusion that reaching the DW hit cap is an utter waste. The difference is about 7% loss trying for it than it was to just hit 2550 or 7.50% and move on.